Attorney: Despite Dover Ruling, Intelligent Design Won't Go Away

Agape Press ^ | 1/6/06 | Jim Brown

[wagglebee]

(AgapePress) - A pro-family attorney is expressing dismay over a Pennsylvania school board's decision to drop a science policy that generated widespread controversy and national media attention. The newly elected Dover Area School Board has voted unanimously to rescind a policy designed to inform students that the theory of intelligent design, or ID, is an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution.

Last month a federal judge declared the Dover Area School District's policy unconstitutional, saying it violated the Establishment Clause, or separation of church and state. Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, says the ruling and the recent school board vote have effectively inoculated the teaching of evolutionary theory in the Pennsylvania school system against any and all criticism.

"The judge specifically ordered the school board never to denigrate or disparage the theory of evolution," Thompson contends, "which now makes that theory sacrosanct and violates one of the major principles of America -- that no official, high or petty, should establish dogma or orthodoxy in a method of thinking."

The Law Center spokesman says he was astounded by the court's ruling. "Our founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves if they realized that this First Amendment language that they adopted would now be used to destroy a policy that a local school board made regarding students being made aware of the theory of intelligent design," he asserts.

However, Thompson points out, regardless of the court ruling and the school board's vote, the issue of ID theory is not likely to go away because other school boards across the United States are even now weighing the evidence and considering the idea that Darwin's theory of evolution has a lot of gaps in it. Also, he notes, many in the academic and scientific communities are realizing that evolution does not explain the complex biological systems scientists are now discovering through advanced technology.

Thompson is hopeful the ruling and the Dover Area School Board's vote will generate even more discussion about the theory of intelligent design and other alternatives to evolution.

[wagglebee]

"Our founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves if they realized that this First Amendment language that they adopted would now be used to destroy a policy that a local school board made regarding students being made aware of the theory of intelligent design,"

Because the left refuses to believe in God, they think "truth" can be adjudicated.

[wagglebee]

Intelligent design ping.

[Herford Turley]

There is no such thing as separation of church and state. I can't seem to find that anywhere in the Constitution. So, I'm thinking this is all made up.

[fizziwig]

"The judge specifically ordered the school board never to denigrate or disparage the theory of evolution,"

This is what really gets me....you can't even criticize evolution at all...its absoultely perfect in every way...

Pathetic.

[wallcrawlr]

"The judge specifically ordered the school board never to denigrate or disparage the theory of evolution," Thompson contends, "which now makes that theory sacrosanct and violates one of the major principles of America -- that no official, high or petty, should establish dogma or orthodoxy in a method of thinking."

Revelation 4:11Intelligent Design
See my profile for info

[Coyoteman]

the issue of ID theory is not likely to go away because other school boards across the United States are even now weighing the evidence and considering the idea that Darwin's theory of evolution has a lot of gaps in it.

And those school boards just happen to have an extra $1-2 million sitting around for legal fees when the lose the inevitable lawsuit?

[peyton randolph]

Yet another Dover ID whiner thread ping.

[wagglebee]

There is no such thing as separation of church and state. I can't seem to find that anywhere in the Constitution. So, I'm thinking this is all made up.

That's because the left's allegiance is to a different constitution (see Article 52).

Constitution of the Soviet Union

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

I think it is pitiful where men with their very finite minds argue about how an infinite mind does things!

[shuckmaster]

students being made aware of the theory of intelligent design

There's no such thing as a "theory of intelligent design". It's just a big lie fabricated by dishonest people who are trying to destroy whats left of our education system.

[wagglebee]

It's absurd, the theory of evolution has been around for a hundred and fifty years, and there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

[Right Wing Professor]

It's absurd, the theory of evolution has been around for a hundred and fifty years, and there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

Hard to believe there are people alive that are this ignorant. Millions of fossils, gigabytes of gene sequences, and he hasn't heard of any of it.

[roadking95th]

One thing that is being overlooked and under reported is the judges ruling on the worthiness of ID. I do not have the ruling in front of me, so I can not quote him directly, but he made a statement containing the following idea. "ID deserves to be EXAMINED, DISCUSSED, AND DEBATED" If not in the classroom, where? It is legal for the District to have a book in the library, but they can not tell of its' title or contents? How is this possible!

[RunningWolf]

Thanks for that link wagglebee.

Wolf

[Just mythoughts]

Oh that little TOE system of education is something really intelligent to write home about. The animals are in charge of the zoo.

[GSlob]

"If not in the classroom, where?" - In a theology classroom, of course. Surely they teach theology at the nearest seminary, or even in a Sunday school. Just not in a science classroom.

[Paradox]

Of course not, there is no ends to which the human mind will fool itself when it sees facts contradicting an emotionally held viewpoint.

[GSlob]

"I think it is pitiful where men with their very finite minds argue about how an infinite mind does things!"
That's why one should avoid theology like a plague. Judge Jones ordered Dover Board to do just that.

[roadking95th]

Work with me here, GSlob. Let's suppose that ID is correct. Science, at its' essence, is merely the study of nature/universe. So, in this study, one would find facts and evidence supporting ID. Therefore, ID should be taught in the classroom. The Dover case was not even doing that, it was only mentioning an alternative theory.

[cdgent]

If this is a direct quite of the judge's ruling (I haven't read all of the court document yet) then he is clearly mistaken in his effort. The theory of evolution today is not even the same as it was a few months ago (I'm referring to the version that would be used by a molecular biologist, not the popular media.) As new evidence becomes available (genotypes of different species, fossil and dating information, etc) the theory is revised and refined to accommodate.

The difference is that a theory (under the scientific method) must both provide testable predictions and be disprovable if those predictions fail to be realized. Claiming observations to be the work of an intelligent designer does neither- we can't make predictions since we have no idea what He will do tomorrow, and any conflicting evidence can be said to be an intentional feature of His design. Evolution, in contrast, MUST be revised when conflicting evidence is found, in order to remain a useful theory. Notice I said conflicting, not missing. Gravity is still not completely understood, but that doesn't make it any less useful (or correct) for predicting the orbits of the planets.

The base issue is that we should teach science in schools, and id is not science. All of creation and evolution may be the design of a Creator, but that is not provable (or disprovable), and as such is not science. Science, for its part, should be more forthright where its theories have shortcomings- such as the line between evolution (does happen) and the origin of life (no idea how it happened).

CDG

[Coyoteman]

If not in the classroom, where?

Do you really want to expose your, and others', religious beliefs to scientific scrutiny?

Science generally leaves religion pretty much alone, and until the Wedge Strategy, religion pretty much left science alone.

Now, there has been a major Trojan horse attack on science by some creation proponents under the guise of ID.

If you bring religious belief/ID into the science or the philosophy classroom you are not exempt from a critical examination. Do you really want that?

As an example, do you want a scientific analysis of the biblical version of the global flood? The evidence for a global flood is not good.

Is it not better to leave well enough alone?

[RunningWolf]

Education was doing just fine years ago, and evo had zilch to do with it.

[Just mythoughts]

"Education was doing just fine years ago, and evo had zilch to do with it."


Yes back in the days before education got socialized.

[cdgent]

Science (and math, and literature, etc) advances as more becomes known. Modern molecular and genetic biology is based on and dependant on evolution. Would you prefer that future doctors and reseachers ignore drug-resistant bacteria because they evolve?

I'm sure people thought education was just fine when the Earth was the center of universe also.

[jwalsh07]

Is it not better to leave well enough alone?

Surely you jest.

You are going to falsify God? Do tell, how?

Maimonides and Aquinas both tell us the same thing. If science conflicts with our interpretation of the Bible, then we must reconsider that interpretation.

Or do you think it is your intellect that we should fear?

[roadking95th]

Scientific analysis of any theory concerning the creation and/or dating of the Earth "is not good." Nor is it good in regards to "occurrences" happening millions and billions of years ago. Carbon 14 dating is seriously flawed as are Potassium-Radon and Uranium-Lead methods. With an open mind, that being key, one could make as well of an argument for the flood as one could for other theories.

I am just stating, regardless of ones beliefs, ID has merit. Schools should be teaching our kids how to learn and make decisions on their own. How can this happen when most of education is rigid.

[GSlob]

"Let's suppose that ID is correct. Science, at its' essence, is merely the study of nature/universe."
ID is not a part of nature, and thus is not, and cannot, be a part of any study of nature/universe. ID deals with things supernatural. Let's suppose instead that granny has different anatomy. Why, she'd then be a grandpa! And such transformations are known in different mythologies [say, ancient Greeks' Thiresius [sp?] myth]. So, which class should this one be mentioned in? - Ancient Greek civ, Greek mythology, Classics and the like. But science?

[roadking95th]

When exactly, in reference to The Theory of Evolution, has bacteria "evolved?" Does it, being the bacteria, "evolve" into a new SPECIES, or does it merely mutate. I think you are confused on the subject of evolution.

[roadking95th]

Last time I checked, we did not have evidence supporting Greek Mythology. We do, however, have evidence that points to the possibility of ID.

[cdgent]

>> I am just stating, regardless of ones beliefs, ID has >> merit.

Examining weaknesses in scientific theories and proposing revisions has merit, and IS critical thinking. Claiming that anything we don't understand yet can never be known and must be the result of a supernatural designer is intellectual laziness.

[RunningWolf]

I'm sure people thought education was just fine when the Earth was the center of universe also.

Well that is a good point and it ties into contemporary science.
Mans theories may not reflect reality in its totality, or correctly, or even in a tiny subset, and yet he makes advances on those theories.

So no, I do not suggest doctors and researcher's ignore drug-resistant bacteria.

Whether the bacteria 'evolve' or not is a concept that may or may not survive 'the evolution of perception' irregardless of the thousands of peer reviewed articles out today, yes as during yesterday also.

The Universe is infinite therefore where is its center, or is everywhere a center?

Red shift theory implies a center does it not? Otherwise there must be other reasons for red shift phenomena. I think there is yet to be discovered.

Wolf

[Herford Turley]

Yep. These people live in a completely different world.

[cdgent]

As an organism, such as staph bacteria, developes new adaptations, such as vandomycin resistance, significant structural and genetic differences develop between the two variants. Sometimes, in fact, demonstrating more genetic difference than sequencing has shown to be present in different species.

This is exactly the theory of evolution. The idea the something only 'evolves' if it magically changes into a completely different form simply shows how little the public knows about the theory.

[GSlob]

Why, we have Greek myths for evidence. If goddess Athena[?] could turn Thiresius into Thiresia, that's the Intelligent Design at work for you! Higher order being [a goddess] designing, or rather redesigning, an otherwise irreducibly complex Thiresius, using the tools and processes which are beyond the knowledge and understanding of mortal humans [then and even now - sex change surgeries take longer and are more messy], and even accomplishing the task in real time, almost instantly! Later god Zeus had to perform the reverse transformation, and with the same unearthly efficiency. And - for the fun of it - try to prove that it did not happen! There are statues and myths of gods, accounts of miraculous cures effected by them, and so on - the whole mound of "indirect, but supporting, evidence".

[roadking95th]

So, when does Staph Bacteria become a NEW species, or when has any organism evolved to a new species. That is what has to eventually happen by your arguements.

[RunningWolf]

Has science ever considered that all these adaptations are already built into the staph bacteria lying dormant till needed? If not why not? Because they cant test for it?

There is so much that contemporary science has made conclusions for-- that really it has small clue to do so.

Wolf

[canuck_conservative]

"Scientific analysis of any theory concerning the creation and/or dating of the Earth "is not good." Nor is it good in regards to "occurrences" happening millions and billions of years ago. Carbon 14 dating is seriously flawed as are Potassium-Radon and Uranium-Lead methods."

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Long-term radio-dating is accurate and used world-wide.


But let's stay on that point, because it shows the main difference between Evolution and Creationism / ID:

- evolution has lots of evidence to back it up;

- creationism / ID has ZERO - that's right, absolutely nothing - NO evidence to back itself up.

[roadking95th]

Ok, you are getting silly now. The mere fact that, at present, we can not point to a species that evolved from a different species is evidence of ID. That is unless you want to make the argument that billions of years ago one single celled life form developed for each of the 3 million+ species that inhabit our planet. That's quite the occurrence.

Once again, I think both ideas have merit and should be discussed in the classroom.

[drjimmy]

"The judge specifically ordered the school board never to denigrate or disparage the theory of evolution," This is what really gets me....you can't even criticize evolution at all...its absoultely perfect in every way... Pathetic.

The truly pathetic thing is that someone who heads a so-called Christian organization would so blatantly violate one of the 10 Commandments. Contrary to what "pro family" attorney Richard Thompson claims in this article, the judge in the Dover case did not order the school board to "never denigrate or disparage the theory of evolution."

I have the judge's ruling on my computer screen right now, and here's what the judge says: "We will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID."

Anyone who is truly the result of intelligent design can see the difference between saying the school board cannot denigrate or disparage evolution and saying the school board cannot require teachers to denigrate or disparage evolution. Richard Thompson defiles the good name of Thomas More with this lie.

[cdgent]

The mere fact that, at present, we can not point to a species that evolved from a different species is evidence of ID.
This is simply not true - the study of that occurance is called speciation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

[Bellflower]

Just not in a science classroom........

Doesn't matter if it true that logic and fact show forth that there had to be a designer, a lie has precedence. The important thing is that we have a blackout of any mention of the possibility of there being a creator. Atheism is the religion of the public school. A blind dogma that cannot be questioned.

[GSlob]

If you are to envision species separation process - think of two subspecies [which could by definition interbreed], where due to accumulating differences the hybrids possess less and less fertility, finally becoming sterile [like mule]. Under these conditions interbreeding between the subspecies becomes evolutionary dead end, and thus stops. As soon as it stops, you have two different species. And unless you have complete genomes, tracing such subspecies from scarce fossils is a thankless proposition.

[RunningWolf]

Atheism is the religion of the public school. A blind dogma that cannot be questioned.

What did Lenin say.. was it that we will be defeated from within or such?

Wolf

[GSlob]

"Don't bible at me in public school". Actually it has certain rhythm to it and could be made into a song line. Designer is not logical - for who/what then had designed that designer? In logic it is called "reductio ad infinitum", and such arguments are fellatious.

[roadking95th]

So when was the last time we had a lizard turn into a bird?
My basic argument comes down to this. Both Evo and ID have merit and need to be discussed in school. Science has many leaps of faiths. We make do with what we have and then modify when new evidence supports such conclusions.

[RunningWolf]

The arguments may fail.

What that leaves out is an in in-cognizance, denial, or rejection of that reality's are beyond Man's reasoning mind.

Wolf

[jec41]

Or do you think it is your intellect that we should fear?


Maybe you should fear your own intellect.

[GSlob]

About 100 Myr [million years] ago. But learn to lose with class. Judge Jones took a broom and swept ID out of science class. As a science ID has no merit. As a theology, it might have some. He was not trying to sweep evolution theory into the curricula of seminaries or Sunday schools. To each one's own - render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

[roadking95th]

why hasn't it happened since? To each one's own? The public School Sytem is all of ours, but I guess only your viewpoint stands.