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Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?
Chronicles Magazine ^ | 01/20/2006 | Srdja Trifkovic

Posted on 01/21/2006 10:17:13 AM PST by Jeremydmccann

“We must never forget . . . that as Muslims, we are obligated to desire, and when possible to participate in, the overthrow of any non-Islamic government—anywhere in the world – in order to replace it by an Islamic one,” the speaker concluded his remarks. The venue was a mosque, not in Rawalpindi or Jeddah but in San Francisco. When a recent convert noted that if Muslims are obligated to overthrow the U.S. government then accepting Islam was tantamount to an act of political treason, the lecturer responded matter-of-factly, “Yes, that’s true.”

He was right both technically and substantively. A breach of allegiance to the United States by naturalized Muslims is not a rarity, it is an integral part of the Muslim-American experience. It is an inherent dilemma for many; it leads the serious few to give aid and comfort to the enemy. The problem will be solved only if and when Islamic activism is treated as grounds for the loss of acquired U.S. citizenship and deportation. The citizenship of any naturalized American who actively supports or preaches jihad, inequality of “infidels,” the establishment of the Shari’a law, etc., should be revoked, and that person promptly deported to the country of origin.

(Excerpt) Read more at chroniclesmagazine.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: anchorbabies; citizenship; immigration; islam; jihadinamerica; mosque; muslim; muslimamericans; naturalization; no; subversives; terrorism

1 posted on 01/21/2006 10:17:14 AM PST by Jeremydmccann
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To: Jeremydmccann

bump


2 posted on 01/21/2006 10:19:24 AM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Jeremydmccann

"Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?"

If they devoutly follow the Koran and the Hadiths?
Well, it's probably above my paygrade to make that call.


3 posted on 01/21/2006 10:20:58 AM PST by VOA
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To: Jeremydmccann

They keep saying it- plainly, honestly- and the STUPID among us refuse to hear it.
The speaker and everyone inside the mosque should be tracked down and arrested and deported to the most backward Islamic paradise we can find.
The mosque- and ALL mosques- should be bulldozed.
And we MUST start enforcing the laws against treason and sedition.


4 posted on 01/21/2006 10:22:03 AM PST by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: ClearBlueSky
Amen !

ML/NJ

5 posted on 01/21/2006 10:23:31 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: Jeremydmccann
"Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?"

Short and concise answer: No.

"Pious" Muslims will never be loyal to _any_ authority, government, or culture, other than that of Islam itself. The Quran commands nothing less.

I will go so far as to say that the same statement applies to the overwhelming majority of Mulisms everywhere, whether "pious" or somewhat less so.

- John

6 posted on 01/21/2006 10:26:36 AM PST by Fishrrman
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To: Jeremydmccann
Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?Of course not.
7 posted on 01/21/2006 10:27:43 AM PST by mosquewatch.com ("The enemy is anyone who will get you killed, no matter what side they are on.")
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To: Fishrrman

Rule of Thumb:

'Muslims First Americans Second'


This has always been my experience, without exception.


8 posted on 01/21/2006 10:30:28 AM PST by ishabibble (UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL)
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To: ClearBlueSky
None are so blind as those who will not see. Can a devout muslim be a loyal American citizen? No.
9 posted on 01/21/2006 10:30:45 AM PST by asp1
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To: ClearBlueSky

"The mosque- and ALL mosques- should be bulldozed.
And we MUST start enforcing the laws against treason and sedition."

Politically, this will be difficult at the moment. A more attainable first step would be the complete political and legal defeat of CAIR---the largest American Islamacist group. They are currently suing those who speak out against them for libel---while enjoying strong MSM support.


10 posted on 01/21/2006 10:31:23 AM PST by strategofr (Taliban had such quick success because of US State Dept support, Dangerous Diplomacy, Mowbray, p. 63)
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To: Fishrrman

I agree. I am also sickened when the pres. and the others refer to Islam as a religion of "peace" and "love". Sure, he shouldn't say the oppposite, but he shouldn't say anything period.


11 posted on 01/21/2006 10:31:56 AM PST by Jeremydmccann
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To: ClearBlueSky
A devout Muslim can do it only if in taking the oath he is practicing taqiyya, the art of dissimulation that was inaugurated by Muhammad to help destabilize and undermine non-Muslim communities almost ripe for a touch of old-fashioned Jihad.

I'm not so sure. Dissimulation, by the author's own reference, means concealing, not abandoning, beliefs. For a muslim to adhere to the oath of citizenship would require him to abandon his religious beliefs which explicitly call for the overthrow of infidel governments like the US government. Therefore I don't see how islam is compatible with the U.S. government or most of America and the world for that matter.

12 posted on 01/21/2006 10:32:02 AM PST by gotribe (Hillary: Accessory to Rape)
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To: Jeremydmccann

NO


13 posted on 01/21/2006 10:32:21 AM PST by rrrod
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To: Jeremydmccann
The venue was a mosque, not in Rawalpindi or Jeddah but in San Francisco.

Before the pervasiveness of moral relativism, this would've been an outrage. Although, I have a feeling that if more people knew what was being said in mosques, in our own country, things might be a little different.
14 posted on 01/21/2006 10:32:40 AM PST by andyk (Fear my strategery of misunderestimation.)
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To: Dark Skies
From Page 4 of my UNITED STATES Passport, under the sub-heading, "LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP"

Obviously, you can lose your citizenship whether or not you were born here.

All that's needed is TO ENFORCE THE LAW!!

15 posted on 01/21/2006 10:33:49 AM PST by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it!)
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To: VOA

You don't need a pay grade to make this call, it's pretty in-your-face - all you need to do is listen to them.


16 posted on 01/21/2006 10:35:08 AM PST by thoughtomator
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To: gotribe

It isn't.


17 posted on 01/21/2006 10:35:43 AM PST by Jeremydmccann
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To: Jeremydmccann
The United States should declare Islam as a subversive organization with the intent of overthrowing the government of the U.S. and cause all people declared as Muslums to be "persona non grata" and export them!

I know that sounds extreme, but our very survival may depend on it. Would we have allowed declared Nazis in 1943 to remain in this country? I don't think so. In my opinion Islam is not as much a religion as it is a political organization. The daily prayer rituals etc are little more than a form of cult ritual. A way to keep the masses in line.

Kick em out!!

18 posted on 01/21/2006 10:36:04 AM PST by mc5cents
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To: ClearBlueSky

KTAN


19 posted on 01/21/2006 10:36:58 AM PST by Noumenon (Liberal activist judges - out of touch, out of tune, but not out of reach.)
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To: Jeremydmccann
Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?

No.

20 posted on 01/21/2006 10:37:44 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: Jeremydmccann
Not and remain a "devout Muslim."

I think the bigger question is, does America need or want Muslim citizens?

21 posted on 01/21/2006 10:38:43 AM PST by IronJack
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To: ClearBlueSky
They keep saying it- plainly, honestly- and the STUPID among us refuse to hear it.

Reminds me of a friend who owned a bar room. It was a neighborhood bar and just about everyone in it knew each other.

He was telling me how one of his regular customers came in and called him aside. The patron explained to my friend that his ensuing actions were not meant personally to my friend and they might affect his business, and he was sorry.

MY friend didn't quite grasp the situation. The guy walked down to a booth pulled out a gun and fired 4 shots into a customer and killed him.. As he was exiting the bar with gun in hand, he turned to my friend and said I'm sorry it had to happen here in your place. (He was later arrested)

Sometimes you have to pay attention to what is being said. The Muslims make their plans available to anyone who will read or listen.

To put it as blunt as possible - When the opportunity presents itself, the Muslims are going to kill you, because you don't believe that Allah is God. - tom

22 posted on 01/21/2006 10:39:49 AM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
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To: Jeremydmccann

No.


23 posted on 01/21/2006 10:40:48 AM PST by Saberwielder
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To: IronJack

Let me answer that, no and no.


24 posted on 01/21/2006 10:42:28 AM PST by Jeremydmccann
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To: Jeremydmccann

I can remember a time when the same questions were asked of and about Catholics. I suppose the question has less to do with Islam and more to do with culture. For the most part the middle east does not have a history of nations or nationalism. The people there identify in the following order 1) family, 2) tribe, 3) sect, 4) Islam, 5) community, 6) nation.


25 posted on 01/21/2006 10:46:21 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: ClearBlueSky

Muslims? Loyal Americans? No way.
..................................

"And we MUST start enforcing the laws against treason and sedition."
......................................

Dittoes!



26 posted on 01/21/2006 10:48:40 AM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: Natural Law
I don't know about family being #1 seems to me they enjoy hacking up their own wifes and daughters almost as much as infidels!
27 posted on 01/21/2006 11:00:13 AM PST by ABN 505
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To: strategofr
while enjoying strong MSM support.

Well, and here may be a new thought: SUE media outlets that are considered treasonous in the peoples mind.

We CAN fight the MSM.

But first, we must WANT to.

28 posted on 01/21/2006 11:02:15 AM PST by EequalsMC2
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To: Jeremydmccann
Pious Muslim/Loyal American

An oxymoron- No?

29 posted on 01/21/2006 11:05:28 AM PST by Minutemen ("It's a Religion of Peace")
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To: Minutemen

Definitely not a redundancy.


30 posted on 01/21/2006 11:07:51 AM PST by Jeremydmccann
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To: Jeremydmccann

.


31 posted on 01/21/2006 11:11:03 AM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Keep on fighting back, against everything the Left stands for.)
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To: Dark Skies

One of the most illuminating moments of the past year came Thanksgiving, when I was in my local deli, run by a Yemeni family.

The absolute rapture or America and Thanksgiving as he spoke of how 27 kinsfolk gathered for "four turkeys, man. Thanksgiving's great!"

The guy is also devout -- he closes for an hour for Friday prayers -- but he appears to be an equally devout American.

The trouble with the Muslim creed, I reckon, is that it sets the bar for devotion just so high that, with just a short stretch, the even-more-devout can embrace blowing themselves up. It's a petri dish for cultivating fanaticism. While my local store owner seems a decent, reasonable man (and he's honest to a T), it's his faith that has the fatal flaw.


32 posted on 01/21/2006 11:45:45 AM PST by Kiss Me Hardy
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To: Jeremydmccann
No.

Ask the Imam

To become a citizen of US one has to take an oath of allegiance. is it ok to take the oath.

As Muslims, we are duty bound to follow our lives strictly according to Shari’ah. Whatever Shari’ah allows us to do, we will abide by that and whatever Shari’ah has restricted us from, we will refrain from it. Hence, we are not allowed to obey anybody if it is resulting in the disobedience of the Creator, Allah. Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘There is no obedience for the creation by disobeying the Creator.’ (Mirqaat vol.7 pg.217; Imdadiyyah).

Hence, keeping this in mind if one is forced to sign the above in order to become a citizen or the only way of attaining citizenship is by acknowledging the above, then one may sign it with the intention that Shari’ah and Deen will always be his yardstick and that he will never sacrifice any of the teachings of Deen.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

AND

What place should the feelings of Patriotism and Nationalism have in a Muslim? Can a Muslim feel proud to be a citizen of his country and take part in Independence celebrations, etc.?

You are writing from the US, hence, we assume you are referring to the independence day of the US.

The US government is at open war with Islam and the Muslims. To honour their symbols, and revere the celebrations is not only Haraam (An Arabic word, used in Islam to refer to anything that is prohibited by the faith. ), there is fear that such an act will cause the participant to denounce his Imaan. Such a person may have difficulty in reciting the Kalimah at the time of death.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Moulana Imraan Vawda
FATWA DEPT.

CHECKED AND APPROVED CORRECT: Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Excepted from Ask the Imam website
33 posted on 01/21/2006 11:47:26 AM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (Mohammedism - Bringing you only the best of the 6th century for fourteen hundred years.)
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
excepted = excerpted
34 posted on 01/21/2006 11:50:08 AM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (Mohammedism - Bringing you only the best of the 6th century for fourteen hundred years.)
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To: Jeremydmccann
Can a Pious Muslim Become a Loyal American?

Only about to the extent a Communist can be...

35 posted on 01/21/2006 12:05:42 PM PST by Gritty ("Islam us a universal ideology that leads the world to justice"-Ahmadinejad)
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To: Kiss Me Hardy

Please keep in mind that the hijackers lived in this country for years and no one they met daily suspected their true feelings. There are Muslims here now, among us- that some of us trust and consider 'regular' guys-who will be the next to pull off a terrorist attack. Those who considered them 'good Muslims' will be shocked.
I'm not saying the man you mentioned is a terrorist, just that-knowing his 'faith' can't be trusted- you should be less trusting and more vigilant.
It is our naivete and willingness to take people at face value that they use against us.


36 posted on 01/21/2006 12:57:37 PM PST by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Kiss Me Hardy
While my local store owner seems a decent, reasonable man (and he's honest to a T), it's his faith that has the fatal flaw.

I absolutely agree. There are many good men and women who have been roped into islam whether by an accident of birth or because they were duped as converts.

The evil is hidden inside islam...under the clutter of the language of the Quran. I suggest there is a living spirit behind islam...and it certainly is NOT benign.

37 posted on 01/21/2006 1:16:20 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Natural Law

"I can remember a time when the same questions were asked of and about Catholics"

--- Yes, you can.

However, the Catholics were not advocating murder, rape and terrorism


38 posted on 01/21/2006 3:19:21 PM PST by Casekirchen (The Iranian mullahs did something right when they banned (Country &) Western music)
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To: Casekirchen

Thank you!
That is a specious comparison. What Pope, or local Catholic priest, urges the faithful to butcher others,commit murder/suicide, or insist that no other religion but Catholicism should exist-much less that it should rule the world?
No other modern religion can be compared to Islam for barbaric savagery. You have to go back to the real dark ages.


39 posted on 01/21/2006 6:22:52 PM PST by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Jeremydmccann
The thing about Radical Islam is the way we seem to go out of our way to give it special protection as a religion...

If a Hardshell Baptists Minister called for the killing of people who did not follow the Baptists Creed, all hell would break loose!

If a Catholic Priest did the same, more hell...

I say when a religion goes past the spiritual, it is not a religion!

In the case of Radical Islam, it does not deserve protection... It deserves to be crushed!

40 posted on 01/21/2006 6:47:37 PM PST by Bender2 (Even dirty old robots need love!)
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To: ClearBlueSky
I can remember some Army training subjects we attended in the 70´s and they showed us a film taken in a Mosque in St. Louis. The guy speaking to the congregation was an imam from Egypt and he was preaching the defeat of America from within. He advocated that true Muslims prepare for the day when they would destroy America.

IMO there are probably hundreds if not thousands of Muslims in this country ready to do just that.
41 posted on 01/21/2006 7:15:31 PM PST by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: Americanexpat

And damn near all of them are smiling when they serve you, or being just the most normal neighbors.
And the fools among us think that because Mohammed is polite he's an A-ok American.
How far would he get if he was frothing at the mouth and screaming in the streets as they do in the Mid East?


42 posted on 01/21/2006 7:20:13 PM PST by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Americanexpat

I agree with you. I met a bunch of nice arabs a few decades ago, when I was in college. As I got to know them, I discovered a couple of things: they hated Americans, some of them were here to recruit their fellow arab students into the PLO,and they were adept liars.

It's not that difficult for them to present a nice face to Americans, and in the company of their own people, show their true hatred of us.

I don't understand why we let them stay here, unless they are citizens of our country.

My views are probably simplistic. I just don't understand how we can be at war with them and welcome them into our country at the same time.

My daughter's Girl Scout troop is going to a mosque "to worship" this Sunday. She won't be going. We are in Massachusetts, so I'm not surprised that most of the girls in the troop are going.


43 posted on 01/23/2006 9:08:16 PM PST by cookiedough
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To: Fishrrman

One thing Christianity does really well is adapt to modern government. The simple 'Do unto Caesar's' line really makes the difference.


44 posted on 01/23/2006 9:09:40 PM PST by Lauretij2
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