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Congress Told of More ATF Abuses, Reforms Suggested
CNSNews.com ^ | March 29, 2006 | Jeff Johnson

Posted on 03/29/2006 12:40:56 PM PST by neverdem

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To: Doomonyou

Should be about June.....


51 posted on 03/29/2006 2:50:39 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: PeterFinn
What was it that G. Gordon Liddy advised to anyone who is so unfortunate as to face the un-Constitutional actions of those "jackbooted thugs"? I'd reprint his advice but one of the mods here would get all in a dither over it. But it remains as good advice. The Second Amendment was written to protect us from just the sort of behavior the ATF carries out as SOP.

I printed it once. I got no beef from the mods, but my firewall was probed within minutes of posting it.

After a minor amount of searching, I found that the IP addr belonged to a company in Langley VA.

If I remember correctly Liddy suggsted head shots for JBT in body armor.

52 posted on 03/29/2006 2:50:52 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Travis McGee
Should be about June.....

I'm watching the web site.

53 posted on 03/29/2006 2:57:32 PM PST by Doomonyou (FR doesn't suffer fools lightly.)
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To: Travis McGee

Great pic - now, I've never tried jackbooted thugdom, but aren't you supposed to pull the ski mask down far enough so's you can see out of it?


54 posted on 03/29/2006 3:15:13 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: neverdem

The problem here is the authority of the agency. The '68 GCA is outright unconstitutional - it prohibits people from selling Constitutionally-protected property to others across state lines (you have to go through a "dealer"), it prohibits you from dealing directly with manufacturers (just try buying an AR clone directly from Bushmaster, DPMS, etc., or a handgun from S&W, Springfield, Glock, etc. - it won't happen unless you have an FFL) and it allows the agency to ban whole classes of guns from civilian ownership under the unlimited, undefined, unconstitutional and unreviewable standard of "sporting purpose" (which, by the way, was a concept lifted directly from the 1938 Nazi Weapons Law - see http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm ).

BATF abuses got the '86 FOPA passed, which forced BATF to ease up a bit, and which allowed interstate shipment of ammo and protected interstate travel with long guns. Maybe the abuses now being testified about can bring some more changes for the better.


55 posted on 03/29/2006 3:15:59 PM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: TexasCajun
Just be glad I don't have Tourettes Syndrome! hehe

Wouldn't bother me if you did. I used to work with a lady who had it, as did her husband and children. She scared many people, but I could see beyond her problem. Of course she had it mostly controlled via medication, but you could still tell when she was about to blow, or at least when it appeared she was about to blow.

56 posted on 03/29/2006 3:20:57 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Ancesthntr
The '68 GCA is outright unconstitutional

You didn't even mention the original federal gun control law. The National Firearms Act. It was for violations that act, not GCA '68 or any other "law", that folks were killed at Ruby Ridge (too short) and Waco (alleged machine guns). It's just as unconstitutional as the others. It's alos the only one to make it to the Supreme Court, in a cast which was sent back to the lower court for "further action", which could have been anything, from reinstatement of the charges, to further pleadings and evidence that a short barrelled shotgun did have militia/military usefulness. The machine gun provisions, the associtated tax, and registry, have never been tested at the Supreme Court.

57 posted on 03/29/2006 3:28:44 PM PST by El Gato
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To: neverdem

58 posted on 03/29/2006 3:48:31 PM PST by Sender (As water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. Be without form. -Sun Tzu)
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To: neverdem

Is this the end of the Alcohol Tobacco Fags?


59 posted on 03/29/2006 3:52:49 PM PST by Porterville (Sure are a lot of these few Muslim Extremist Fanatics)
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To: neverdem

The man is lucky they didn't burn his house down!


60 posted on 03/29/2006 4:56:15 PM PST by SouthTexas (There's a hot time in Gay Paris tonight.)
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To: kstewskis
So much for playing by the rules.

It's just FATE (Firearms, Alcohol, Tobacco, Ecplosives)

61 posted on 03/29/2006 5:17:55 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (Red meat, we were meant to eat it - Meat and Livestock Australia TV ad campaign)
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To: Logophile
"The term 'willful' is not defined in the law."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That brings to mind another slimeball excuse:

"No controlling legal authority"...

62 posted on 03/29/2006 5:41:17 PM PST by TXnMA (This tagline temporarily offline for system upgrade...)
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To: Oztrich Boy
It's just FATE (Firearms, Alcohol, Tobacco, Ecplosives)

Hmmm...I have the first three, but not the last.

Do sparklers from last 4th of July count? ;o)

63 posted on 03/29/2006 6:10:43 PM PST by kstewskis ("I don't know what I know, but I know that it's big".....Jerry Fletcher)
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To: Smokin' Joe
When I say justify I mean hard numbers, like did they spend $50k to get $100? I'm not talking about the touchy, feely justification which is what they were able to get from the Senate. Money wise Waco was a huge waste of taxpayer's money. On the human front it was a tragedy.
64 posted on 03/29/2006 6:16:33 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: looscnnn; All

I know what was behind Ruby Ridge/Randy Weaver BS, never got the skinny on WACO.
Anyone?


65 posted on 03/29/2006 6:21:31 PM PST by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: investigateworld

From what I understand of the reasons it was due to a bunch of firearms that were bought (supposedly over $50k). They say that Koresh bought them. I believe that they claim that there were a bunch of unregistered full autos. They also claimed Koresh was involved in statatory rape. I think that was part of the "warrant" that they were trying to "serve" Koresh. They claimed that Koresh never left the compound, but he jogged on the road outside the compound daily.


66 posted on 03/29/2006 7:13:10 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: looscnnn
Those were the public 'reasons', having worked around federal LEOs in my previous career, I know they have another agenda 99% of the time.
And statutory rape is a state violation?
67 posted on 03/29/2006 7:21:51 PM PST by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: Billthedrill

Re "...aren't you supposed to pull the ski mask down far enough so's you can see out of it?"

Is that why they keep running around bumping into and tripping over things?


68 posted on 03/29/2006 7:53:05 PM PST by Uncle Jaque (Club Freedom; Dues: Vigilance.)
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To: Travis McGee
"Should be about June....."

Might not have that long

69 posted on 03/29/2006 7:59:16 PM PST by vrwc0915
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To: investigateworld

http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/ is an interesting read.


70 posted on 03/29/2006 8:02:18 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: neverdem
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms

What can you say about a bureau established for the purpose of harassing guys who like to pop a beer, light up a cigar and do some plinking?

BATF sounds like something in need of some serious abolishing.

71 posted on 03/29/2006 8:08:24 PM PST by Barnacle
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To: Travis McGee

Ski mask + Weapon = Criminal


72 posted on 03/29/2006 8:12:36 PM PST by Barnacle
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To: Travis McGee

Unfortunately it is the nature of bureaucracies to create a problem, or let a current problem fester, to become the solution, to establish more control. This so often happens in politics as well. Just insert politics in place of bureaucracies.

Now I am not saying all bureaucracies or politicians are like this but I am saying that they gravitate toward this end result as it is the path of least resistance.

By nailing the little guys it creates job security as the big problems become larger as they are left alone. The real problem is still around justifying the need for more control by the bureaucracy(politicians).


73 posted on 03/29/2006 8:23:52 PM PST by LuxMaker
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To: looscnnn

Waco was murder most foul, not just a 'tragedy'.


74 posted on 03/29/2006 8:24:20 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: neverdem

IF GUNOWNERS were politcally active and I mean in the left leaning way of positive action this crap would stop. If every time a gunowner or FFL is harassed the squeaky wheel was heard loud this would stop. Look what illegal immigrants can do by just protesting. When did you ever see GUNOWNERS protest. NEVER. Conservatives just don't act that way.


75 posted on 03/29/2006 8:36:06 PM PST by therut
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To: Doomonyou

Thanks! I'd be done already, if not for freeping........


76 posted on 03/29/2006 9:26:12 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; AlexandriaDuke; Americanwolf; Annie03; Baby Bear; bassmaner; ...
I'm sure all of this will be done away with when we get a republican majo.....you know what screw it i cant even go through the motions anymore.

How many f**king times a year for the last 5 have we heard of this kind of bulls**t going on over and over again and each time some timid little whore that gets a federal paycheck somewhat casually suggests a reform or two here and there and what happens with all that lip service? not a g*dd**n thing ever and it wont happen because no one is getting pissed enough to throw these sobs out of office that have oversight to bring these jack boot fascists under control.Heres a little thing to note georgie bush (you know the man that point blank said he would sign the assault weapons ban if it got to his desk and brags about project safe neighborhoods that rino pos)can disband the entire agency tomorrow with an executive order but never has even considered it and he still gets a good rating from the ultra liberal NRA. (whose former president helped get the 68 gun control act passed which was an almost verbatim translation from germanys gun control act)the NRA needs this kind of crap going on to raise massive amounts of money from the uninformed sheeple that cant see that that group along with the government are a huge part of the problem.its not a conspiracy its a collusion

Libertarian ping.To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here

77 posted on 03/29/2006 9:30:51 PM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: Travis McGee
seperated at birth?
78 posted on 03/29/2006 9:33:59 PM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: freepatriot32

"I'm sure all of this will be done away with when we get a republican majo.....you know what screw it i cant even go through the motions anymore...How many f**king times a year for the last 5 have we heard of this kind of bulls**t going on over and over again and each time some timid little whore that gets a federal paycheck somewhat casually suggests a reform or two here and there and what happens with all that lip service? not a g*dd**n thing ever and it wont happen because no one is getting pissed enough to throw these sobs out of office that have oversight to bring these jack boot fascists under control.Heres a little thing to note georgie bush (you know the man that point blank said he would sign the assault weapons ban if it got to his desk and brags about project safe neighborhoods that rino pos)can disband the entire agency tomorrow with an executive order but never has even considered it and he still gets a good rating from the ultra liberal NRA. (whose former president helped get the 68 gun control act passed which was an almost verbatim translation from germanys gun control act)the NRA needs this kind of crap going on to raise massive amounts of money from the uninformed sheeple that cant see that that group along with the government are a huge part of the problem.its not a conspiracy its a collusion"

What you said. Only with more punctuation. 8)


79 posted on 03/29/2006 9:55:01 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (Freedom isn't free--no, there's a hefty f'in fee--and if you don't throw in your buck-o-5, who will?)
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To: LibertarianInExile

i thought all those red dots i was seeing in front of my eyes were periods honest:-) it must have just been the red rage instead lol


80 posted on 03/29/2006 11:35:09 PM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: neverdem
The ATF should be abolished. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen - even though there is the 2nd Amendment.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

81 posted on 03/29/2006 11:43:59 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Smokin' Joe

I was not trying to minimize what happened. Yes it was murder that was commited, that is the tragedy. The whole thing could have been avoided, there were opportunities to settle it peacibly but the government did not try.


82 posted on 03/30/2006 5:38:17 AM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: looscnnn
It was one of a pattern of events, notably, The Ruby Ridge (Randy Weaver) incident, Gordon Kahl at Medina, North Dakota, Waco, M.O.V.E. In Philladelphia (earlier than the others), and others.

I won't include the "freemen" thing in Montana, 'cause those guys apparently just ripped people off, and it was resolved without mass slaughter. Thievery is not a matter of principle. The media tried but failed to link them with the Militia of Montana.

In all cases, though, the issue at hand could have been resolved, or the 'suspect' captured under other circumstances and probably without any gunplay or other violence.

Have these stopped or just been kept quiet better?

83 posted on 03/30/2006 6:36:40 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Barney Gumble

Ping!


84 posted on 03/30/2006 6:57:54 AM PST by jjm2111 (http://www.purveryors-of-truth.blogspot.com)
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To: El Gato

I agree 100% with you regarding the NFA. I didn't mention it because it affects less people, and most of what the BAT F'ers do is based on the GCA. That "sporting purposes" clause is the cause of more harm than virtually anything else.


85 posted on 03/30/2006 8:05:41 AM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: Smokin' Joe

Quiet better, different strategy... no time to post details, but there are lots of milita and 2d Amendment rights activists being entrapped to commit technical violations (on the word of informants facing many years if they don't cooperate-- i.e. liars)... I've noticed a bunch of these... multiple arrests, big news splash about machine guns, links to crime... but it is just a gun dealer who committed a minor violation who winds up serving hard time with everyone involved who won't play the same game on the next person on "the list".


86 posted on 03/30/2006 10:46:29 AM PST by LambSlave (The truth will set you free)
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To: DoughtyOne

The ATF DEA, FBI and other alphabet soup agencies should be closed down and the agents sumarily dismissed. They have encroached on everyone's freedom too much. Reform is a joke. Get rid of em.


87 posted on 03/30/2006 10:50:57 AM PST by OldCorps
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To: LambSlave

Sounds like the standard M.O., without the grandstanding.


88 posted on 03/30/2006 11:44:23 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: kstewskis
It's just FATE (Firearms, Alcohol, Tobacco, Ecplosives)

Hmmm...I have the first three, but not the last. Do sparklers from last 4th of July count? ;o)

No, but model rocket engines and "too much" black powder do.

89 posted on 03/30/2006 2:00:47 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Travis McGee
I'd be done already, if not for freeping........

Nasty habit you got there! LOL

90 posted on 03/30/2006 2:37:56 PM PST by Doomonyou (FR doesn't suffer fools lightly.)
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To: looscnnn
From what I understand of the reasons it was due to a bunch of firearms that were bought (supposedly over $50k). They say that Koresh bought them. I believe that they claim that there were a bunch of unregistered full autos. They also claimed Koresh was involved in statatory rape. I think that was part of the "warrant" that they were trying to "serve" Koresh. They claimed that Koresh never left the compound, but he jogged on the road outside the compound daily.

There was nothing about statutory rape in the warrant, although there were some rumors in the affidavit. They didn't even have the warrant in their possession, when they conducted their raid. It was, BTW, a search warrant, not an arrest warrant, so serving it when he was outside the complex would not have made any sense.

Supposedly the BATFers were first put on to Koresh and company when a delivery driver dropped a package and out fell grenade hulls. (which are not illegal). But then as part of their "Showtime" operation, they developed other information. Such as the presence of the "subversive" publications, Shotgun News (obtainable at most Texas bookstores and grocery stores, plus WalMart, I have several copies laying around the house now) and "other related subversive publications", including a rumored copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" (available in many libraries, and from Amazon ($18.87) and Barnes and Nobel) The BATF, and the Judge, would not let anyone other than the BATF examine the weapons (AR clones and AK clones) recovered from the fire to determine 1) if the weapons had been converted to full/select fire, and 2) if they had, had the conversion been done before, or after the fire.

You can read a transcription of the Affidavit used to obtain the warrant, and one of the warrant itself, along with another transcription of the affidavit. Koresh apparently knew the BATF was coming, even before the search warrant, and invited them out to take a look see. The Sheriff testified that he had always found Koresh cooperative.

One little interesting part of the affidavit goes:

Eight people, including Vernon W. Howell and Paul Gordon Fatta were arrested by the McLennan County Sheriff's Department, Waco, Texas, and were indicted for attempted murder by a McLennan County Grand Jury. All eight subjects were tried in State court at Waco, Texas and were acquitted of the charges of attempted murder by a jury.

After the armed assault by Howell and his followers

Now obviously if there had been an armed assault, and someone was shot, that would be attempted murder, but the jury decided otherwise, so this, like the most of the rest of the affidavit is pure Bovine Scat, and not material to the alleged violation of the law. (i.e. failure to register and pay the tax on machine guns and destructive devices).

One, or more, of the people living at Mt. Carmel center was a federally licensed firearms dealer. As part of supporting themselves, the BD's constructed and sold firearms, mostly at area gun shows. Heck, if I lived then were I live now, I might have bought one from them.

91 posted on 03/30/2006 2:43:10 PM PST by El Gato
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To: therut
When did you ever see GUNOWNERS protest. NEVER. Conservatives just don't act that way.

I beg to differ. I personally took part in two such protests, on the south side grounds of the Texas State Capital. Here's a photo of one of those events. I might even be in the photo, although I'm not 100% sure.

That was the fun part of the protest. Here's another photo, of an earlier rally that I did not make, but which is representative of the two that I did.

There was even a rally in DC, with GG Liddy among others in attendence, which was broadcast on CSPAN.

92 posted on 03/30/2006 2:56:33 PM PST by El Gato
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To: El Gato

"Koresh apparently knew the BATF was coming, even before the search warrant, and invited them out to take a look see. The Sheriff testified that he had always found Koresh cooperative."

I had heard that, they were in questioning a gun dealer about some purchases they (Koresh) had made and he said for them to come out. They declined at that time.

Any idea what is the status of the compound, has it been sold off? I thought I heard that some of the members had/has gone back and building new.


93 posted on 03/30/2006 4:26:07 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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