Posted on 03/29/2006 12:40:56 PM PST by neverdem
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
I was not trying to minimize what happened. Yes it was murder that was commited, that is the tragedy. The whole thing could have been avoided, there were opportunities to settle it peacibly but the government did not try.
I won't include the "freemen" thing in Montana, 'cause those guys apparently just ripped people off, and it was resolved without mass slaughter. Thievery is not a matter of principle. The media tried but failed to link them with the Militia of Montana.
In all cases, though, the issue at hand could have been resolved, or the 'suspect' captured under other circumstances and probably without any gunplay or other violence.
Have these stopped or just been kept quiet better?
Ping!
I agree 100% with you regarding the NFA. I didn't mention it because it affects less people, and most of what the BAT F'ers do is based on the GCA. That "sporting purposes" clause is the cause of more harm than virtually anything else.
Quiet better, different strategy... no time to post details, but there are lots of milita and 2d Amendment rights activists being entrapped to commit technical violations (on the word of informants facing many years if they don't cooperate-- i.e. liars)... I've noticed a bunch of these... multiple arrests, big news splash about machine guns, links to crime... but it is just a gun dealer who committed a minor violation who winds up serving hard time with everyone involved who won't play the same game on the next person on "the list".
The ATF DEA, FBI and other alphabet soup agencies should be closed down and the agents sumarily dismissed. They have encroached on everyone's freedom too much. Reform is a joke. Get rid of em.
Sounds like the standard M.O., without the grandstanding.
No, but model rocket engines and "too much" black powder do.
Nasty habit you got there! LOL
There was nothing about statutory rape in the warrant, although there were some rumors in the affidavit. They didn't even have the warrant in their possession, when they conducted their raid. It was, BTW, a search warrant, not an arrest warrant, so serving it when he was outside the complex would not have made any sense.
Supposedly the BATFers were first put on to Koresh and company when a delivery driver dropped a package and out fell grenade hulls. (which are not illegal). But then as part of their "Showtime" operation, they developed other information. Such as the presence of the "subversive" publications, Shotgun News (obtainable at most Texas bookstores and grocery stores, plus WalMart, I have several copies laying around the house now) and "other related subversive publications", including a rumored copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook" (available in many libraries, and from Amazon ($18.87) and Barnes and Nobel) The BATF, and the Judge, would not let anyone other than the BATF examine the weapons (AR clones and AK clones) recovered from the fire to determine 1) if the weapons had been converted to full/select fire, and 2) if they had, had the conversion been done before, or after the fire.
You can read a transcription of the Affidavit used to obtain the warrant, and one of the warrant itself, along with another transcription of the affidavit. Koresh apparently knew the BATF was coming, even before the search warrant, and invited them out to take a look see. The Sheriff testified that he had always found Koresh cooperative.
One little interesting part of the affidavit goes:
Eight people, including Vernon W. Howell and Paul Gordon Fatta were arrested by the McLennan County Sheriff's Department, Waco, Texas, and were indicted for attempted murder by a McLennan County Grand Jury. All eight subjects were tried in State court at Waco, Texas and were acquitted of the charges of attempted murder by a jury.
After the armed assault by Howell and his followers
Now obviously if there had been an armed assault, and someone was shot, that would be attempted murder, but the jury decided otherwise, so this, like the most of the rest of the affidavit is pure Bovine Scat, and not material to the alleged violation of the law. (i.e. failure to register and pay the tax on machine guns and destructive devices).
One, or more, of the people living at Mt. Carmel center was a federally licensed firearms dealer. As part of supporting themselves, the BD's constructed and sold firearms, mostly at area gun shows. Heck, if I lived then were I live now, I might have bought one from them.
I beg to differ. I personally took part in two such protests, on the south side grounds of the Texas State Capital. Here's a photo of one of those events. I might even be in the photo, although I'm not 100% sure.
That was the fun part of the protest. Here's another photo, of an earlier rally that I did not make, but which is representative of the two that I did.
There was even a rally in DC, with GG Liddy among others in attendence, which was broadcast on CSPAN.
"Koresh apparently knew the BATF was coming, even before the search warrant, and invited them out to take a look see. The Sheriff testified that he had always found Koresh cooperative."
I had heard that, they were in questioning a gun dealer about some purchases they (Koresh) had made and he said for them to come out. They declined at that time.
Any idea what is the status of the compound, has it been sold off? I thought I heard that some of the members had/has gone back and building new.
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