Posted on 06/01/2006 3:20:50 AM PDT by Doctor13
So let's talk about Yugoslavia!
Finally, after more than a decade of one-way journalistic language that in no way made sense, an opening seems to have been created in France in the press (1), and perhaps not only in France, to speak about things differently? or simply to start speaking about Yugoslavia.
A debate, a discussion, a discourse, a fruitful discussion seems to have become possible, a general questioning, of reports that speak for themselves... Previously: nothing, and still more nothing? defamations instead of a debate, expressed by exclusively prefabricated words, repeated ad infinitum, used like an automatic weapon.
So let's enlarge this breach or opening, the springtime of words. Let us at last hear one another instead of screaming and snarling launched from two enemy camps. But also, let's no longer tolerate beings (?), evil (!) spirits (?), who, with respect to the tragic Yugoslav problem, continue firing word-bullets like "revisionism," "apartheid," "Hitler," "bloody dictatorship," etc. Let's stop all the comparisons and all the parallels made about the wars in Yugoslavia. Let's stick to the facts which, like the facts of a civil war, unleashed or at least co-produced by European bad faith or, at least, ignorance, already punctured, are terrible enough from all sides. Let's stop comparing Slobodan Milosevic to Hitler. Let's stop comparing him and his wife Mira Markovic to Macbeth and his Lady and let's stop drawing parallels between the couple and the dictator Ceaucescu and his wife Elena. And let's never again use the expression "concentration camps" for the camps established during the war of succession in Yugoslavia.
True: intolerable camps existed between 1992 and 1995 on the territory of the Yugoslav Republics, chiefly in Bosnia. Let's stop the exclusive and mechanical association of these camps with the Bosnian Serbs: there were also Croat and Muslim camps, and the crimes committed in these camps are and will be judged by The Hague Tribunal. And finally, let's stop associating massacres (of which there were many in Srebrenica in July 1995, and are in fact by far the most abominable) to Serbian forces or paramilitaries. Let's also listen finally to the survivors of the massacres committed by Muslims in the numerous Serbian villages that surround Srebrenica, the Muslim town, massacres committed over and over again during the three years before the fall of Srebrenica, massacres led by the commander of Srebrenica, leading in July 1995 to infernal vengeance, to eternal shame for those Bosnian Serbs responsible for it for the great butchery, and for once the oft-repeated word is in its proper place in the phrase "the greatest in Europe since World War II," while adding, nevertheless, this piece of information: that all the soldiers or Muslim men from Srebrenica who fled from Bosnia into Serbia by crossing the Drina River, the border between the two States, fled to Serbia, the country that was at the time under Milosevic's rule, and that all these soldiers who arrived in Serbia, a so-called enemy, were saved. No butchery or massacre there.
Yes, let's listen, after having listened to the "Mothers of Srebrenica," let's also listen to the mothers or one single mother from the village of Kravica, Serbian, close by, recount the Orthodox Christmas massacre in 1992-1993, committed by Muslim forces from Srebrenica, a massacre also conducted against the women and children of Kravica (the only crime for which the word genocide is appropriate).
And let's stop blindly associating the "snipers" of Sarajevo with "the Serbs": most of the French members of the UN peacekeeping force who were killed in Sarajevo were victims of Muslim gunmen. And let's stop associating the siege (horrible, stupid, incomprehensible) of Sarajevo exclusively with the Bosnian Serbs: in Sarajevo during 1992-1995, tens of thousands of the Serbian population remained blockaded in central neighborhoods like Grbavica, which were in turn put under siege - and how! - by Muslim forces. And let's stop attributing rapes exclusively to Serbs. And let's stop connecting words unilaterally, like one of Pavlov's dogs. Let's enlarge the opening. May the breach never again be choked by rotten and poisoned words. Evil spirits out. Leave language once and for all. Let's learn the art of the question, let's make a trip to the sonorous land, in the name of Yugoslavia, in the name of another Europe. Long live the other Europe! Long live Yugoslavia! Zivela Jugoslavia.
(1) See, among other things, the articles by Brigitte Salino and d'Anne Weber in Le Monde, May 4, 2006; the commentary by Piere Macrabru in Le Figaro, which was published on the same day; and the appeal made by Christian Salmon in Liberation on May 5, 2006.
Translated by Milo Yelesiyevich
Peter Hanke is one of the most prominent and popular German writers of the post war generation. He stirred a senation with a long essay defending Serbia against what he describes as a conspiracy of lazy and mendacious journalists who surf "from cliche to cliche."
He developed a growing mistrust of news accounts of the conflict, and decided to visit Serbia, "the land of the so-called aggressor. His report is part travelogue and part political tract.
Not having them around. I find it much more meaningful to contemplate God every down time I have, and even pray that He convert the hearts of those whom you like to prod and poke.
I take the pictures from all various angles of the Trnopolje camp. Included will be the infamous photo shots that are now world-famous
I thought the Trnopolye mystery was resolved when wide-angle shots showed that the crowds gathered from outside out of curiosity to look at foreign journalists, who were inside the camp. You mean to tell me there are some people who still believe that it was the other way around?
That's almost like some people who still believe in Saddam's WMDs.
Commie Greens don't like him?...by default I do.
Good book, I'm reading it now......so many people have no idea that the book exists.
It's actually got a lot of notice in Conservative circles, especially after David Binder made that statement about how John Burns & Roy Gutman "should hand back their Pulitzers". But the book is only available through one source. You can't just "order it at Amazon".
From a literary point of view, it was less than concise and direct, but the information contained in it was priceless.
For example: In March 1994 (over a year before Operation Storm drove all the Serbs out of the Slavonia region of Croatia), with Croatia's permission, papers had been filed with the UN regarding Germany's use the area of 20 Serb villages as "a dump-site for chemical and nuclear waste material".
You want to tell me how reporters failed to notice that?
Yeah, I have been reading his little posts over there on the islamic site for awhile!! And, just today, another anti-SERB admitted to be gay. What an INTERESTING DAY!!
FOFLMAO!!Guffaw!!!LOL!!
Let's have some fun at Hopelite's expense. I rewrote what he put on your link. Let's see how it fits properly.
quote:
As evidenced by the democratic electing of the Bosnian (Iranian-based) Al Dawa, Al Haramain, and RHIS and Other Islamic fundalmentalist groups of kosovo(the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq), victory belongs to the Albanian Mafia and Muslim groups in Kosovo (Iran.)
Due to your support, Clnton (Bush according to Hopelite) has INADVERTENTLY fathered a burgeoning fundamentalist Islamic republic with long standing and direct ties to the Balkans to Kosovo which was advocated by the Clinton Administration. (According to Hopelite..it's Iran which Bush called an `axis of evil'.)
FACT: Every drop of blood and every cent spent is for the sake of an Islamic fundamentalist in the Balkans (Iraq).
How many more tens of thousands of people need to be maimed, raped, burned, beheaded, malnutritioned, killed, etc and how many more hundreds of billions of dollars need to be spent for the sake of an Islamic fundamentalist in the Balkans and covered up instead of Iraq?
Most Americans have no idea that countless lives, limbs, and vast amounts of cash are being spent in order to prop up a burgeoning fundamentalist in the Balkans since 1990's (Iraq according to Hopelite)
When the media tears down the firewall blocking this fact, there's going to be a lot of noise.
Why?
No American mother or father wishes to harm a hair on the head of their child for an Islamic fundamentalist in Kosovo. (Iraq).
Check out the fourth paragraph, that will blow your mind.....
Better late than never, but why would the Serbs wait until the last minute to take some sort of action. This has been going on since 1999 and not stopped.
STEPHEN SWARTZ, that American guy who converted to islame, the shitte kind... thinks like hoplite!!
In 1995 more than 100 Muslim fighters from Srebrenica escaped to Serbia. They were later relocated with the Red Cross assistance to Dublin,Ireland and The Hague, Netherlands. Those in Netherlands were given preferential treatment compared to other refugees and permanent immigrant status. My guess is they were used as a groomed 'protected witnesses" in The Hague circus.
For period before 1995 it is very useful to dig through internet newsgroup archives instead of web search. There is a lot of unfiltered useful information.
This is an extremelly important point. Sarajevo was a stong military garrison of Bosnian Muslim Army. Army prevented all citizens Muslims and Serbs alike to leave the town. It is war crime Hague Convention on warfare on land.
Serb citizens of Sarajevo were systematically targeted by Muslim militia and Military - harrassed, raped, murdered and forced to slave labor. More than 5000 were murdered while in captivitity.
The siege of Sarajevo started after Bosnian Muslims have massacred retreating JNA column.
Terrorism and provocation was a tactics, and playing victim strategy of Bosnian Muslim politicians. It worked, becase NATO needed job to justify it's existence.
There were more than 100.....the count was 8,000 murdered, but only 2000-3000 were actually killed as combatants.....a lot were Muslim vets from afghan. and surrounding Muslims groups. We helped train many if not most in Croatia for example......
After the Fall: Srebrenica Survivors in St. Louis
P. 120 “Srebrenica Survivors in St. Louis: After the Fall” text and interviews by Patrick McCarthy: Quoting Hamil Becirovic – a soldier who walked out:
Srebrenica’s fall was very sudden. We were in our village when the attack began. There were strong points, strong defenses all around. My brother was with me. My mother, wife, and child were together and they went to Potocari.Around 7:30 in the evening, we got the news that women and children should go in one direction and that men should go in another direction because of the possibility of attack.
The order came from the brigade commander in Srebrenica and the people followed that direction.
It was really hard. My wife took our child and left. I stayed behind at our house and waited for others who were leaving, so that we could go together.
About 11:15 p.m., the men started to get together and we went to a nearby village where the men were also gathering. I was with my family, friends, and neighbors. At one point, there were, I think, something like eighteen thousand men together in that one place.
They told us it would be difficult to walk from the place where we had gathered, to walk to Tuzla, because it was hard to organize eighteen thousand people into one row so that they would go one after another.
People started leaving about 1:00 a.m. It wasn’t our time to go until about 6:00 a.m. Those ahead of us were moving for five hours and we still didn’t leave until 6:00 a.m. – my brother and the others I was with.
We crossed the Serb line and it immediately became more difficult because we were in their territory. There was one huge group of people walking in front of us, marking the way to go. Of course, after eighteen thousand people go, there is a mark of the way, there was a trail of the way out.
…
I arrived in Tuzla on the seventh day.
I underlined the one part because he first says "when the attack began" but then says they were preparing to evacuate "because of the possibility of attack" - so it doesn't appear any real fighting has begun - and for him at least - he didn't mention his unit/section receiving or returning any fire when they got the order to leave their defense positions.
Seems obvious, that when the command removes a large, strong army with good defenses, which hasn't even just lost a fight to outside forces, there was purposeful planning to allow the city to "fall".
When the Dutch turned over their OPs to the Serbs, Srebrenica's defenders lost the the strong points and defensible terrain on the enclave's southern perimeter, and against Serbian armor and artillery, the enclave's inadequately supplied defenders stood no chance of defending themselves.
Given the Serbian treatment of captured males, regardless of any actual military affiliation, evacuating turned out to be the best of a bad set of options for Srebrenica's defenders.
Exactly....and that is why there weren't 8,000 killed as previously claimed. Finally we agree on something.
The same principle holds true about Kosovo. They never did find 10,000 massacred bodies. The set up about the entire Balkan campaign was just enough truth to make the entire lie believeable.
Ping
Evacutation was permitted under Mladics Garde and remnants of the Drina Corps. The muslim population were given the promise of safe passage with bus transportation from the Serbian Army. The muslim army (that were under orders of Oric and Izetbegovic) didn't allow this to occur. When those muslims (civilian and military) that accepted the offer of the Serbs began to move towards the AA, is when muslim-on-muslim fighting began.
It was a running gun battle between those three segments -The Oric muslims v. muslim army and civies that wanted to leave v. the Serb Army and Serb local populace. It was not so much the Serb v. muslims wanting to leave, but they were given very good treatment and gave grids on the Oric muslims.
Do the math, the Serbs sat back while those two fractured groups were fighting it out and only moved in when it was clear they entire muslim army was pulling out.
I was in Tuzla in Jan 1996 when the claim was 11,000.
Bosnian so-called foreign minister Haris Silajdzic in 1994 launched the lie that 200,000 people have been killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He had no way of knowing that; it was a made up number intended for propaganda purposes. But he said it straightfaced, and all the western politicians, starting from Clinton on down the entire west-European puppet roster were repeating it as "fact." Of course, the implication was that the number represented the Muslim dead; Serb casualties were never counted as loss in the west.
The set up about the entire Balkan campaign was just enough truth to make the entire lie believeable
Well, we have a mirror situation in Iraq. We are there because of non-existent WMDs. One would wish someone in the government would double-check the facts before we cause deaths to our own sons and daughters and others ("collateral damage"). But, hey, it's been great for those who own oil shares.
That is injustice.
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