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ACLU: Conceived In Tyranny
Investors Business Daily ^ | September 21, 2006

Posted on 09/21/2006 7:28:16 PM PDT by NCjim

The Enemy Within: From the beginning, the American Civil Liberties Union has aligned itself with America's adversaries. Its unrelenting strategy has been to twist our Constitution into a weapon against American values and security.

ACLU founder and longtime executive director Roger Baldwin's infamous quote still haunts his organization today, a quarter-century after the radical activist's death:

"I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

It's a statement that's been repeated and reprinted so many times, some Americans might be numbed rather than outraged upon hearing it again. But it's no urban legend. The man who started the organization that claims to be the leading safeguard of the U.S. Constitution did say it, along with plenty of statements mirroring those sentiments.

Baldwin was already steeped in communist thought when in the late 1910s he jump-started the American Union Against Militarism, which was established to oppose the U.S. effort in World War I. Within the AUAM — the progenitor of the ACLU — Baldwin formed the Bureau of Conscientious Objectors to defend war resisters. He also joined the anti-war socialist People's Council.

In 1918, Baldwin pleaded guilty to his own draft dodging and was sentenced to a year in prison. He told his local draft board he refused to perform military service and "any service whatever designed to help the war." He opposed the draft in principle, during war or peacetime, or "for any purpose whatsoever."

(Excerpt) Read more at investors.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aclu; antiamericanism; auam; baldwin; civilliberties; communism; communists; culturewar; rogerbaldwin
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1 posted on 09/21/2006 7:28:16 PM PDT by NCjim
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To: NCjim; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Alexander Rubin; An American In Dairyland; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee or little jeremiah to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]

The ACLU's goal is to replace the American way of life with Marxism.

2 posted on 09/21/2006 7:30:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: NCjim

the enemy within.


3 posted on 09/21/2006 7:32:00 PM PDT by bubman
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To: NCjim

Nice post, thanks.


4 posted on 09/21/2006 7:34:31 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Don't mix alcopops and ufo's)
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To: NCjim

. . . and should have been aborted.


5 posted on 09/21/2006 7:35:29 PM PDT by shankbear (Al-Qaeda grew while Monica blew)
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To: NCjim

They are a waste of perfectly good air IMO.


6 posted on 09/21/2006 7:36:01 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: NCjim

And now there is evidence of an organized military opposition to the lawful Civilaian Rule of Government.

Is there any doubt that they have penetrated the highest levels of our country?

The Constitution says the Military is under Civilian Control. It is time to cleanse the "United States" military of traitors. The roots lead to ACLU and treason.

Also thanks to Republicans like McCain for extending Civil Liberties to every rat's child with a Kalashnikov. The ACLU will need them when the time comes...


7 posted on 09/21/2006 7:42:52 PM PDT by Nickey (Loose Lips Sink Ships.)
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To: NCjim
Another of the aclu's founders, Norman Thomas declared...

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

As with most other democrats, they never lose sight of the ultimate goal - no matter how long it takes to achieve it.

8 posted on 09/21/2006 7:48:10 PM PDT by Nomorjer Kinov (If the opposite of "pro" is "con" , what is the opposite of progress?)
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To: NCjim
during a guided tour of the Soviet Union in 1927, was confided to by his tour guide, who "broke down and confessed that the secret police ran the country and deliberately concealed from fellow travelers the terrible torture that took place behind closed doors."

Baldwin later admitted to his biographer Peggy Lamson that he was "too prejudiced" to let that revelation affect his thinking. He told her, "Great upheavals like the Russian Revolution have their price, I told myself."

None are so blind as those who will not see,

Great Post.

9 posted on 09/21/2006 7:55:48 PM PDT by Pontiac (All are worthy of freedom, none are incapable.)
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To: subazak

Commie ping


10 posted on 09/21/2006 7:58:17 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist (If a monkey bangs away at a typewriter twice a week for ten years it could write an M. Dowd column.)
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To: NCjim
aclj.org

American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ)

I saw the above advertised on the tube. They have a petition to protect Military Prayer. As you all know, the Commies in the ACLU are the problem. I recently found this site and I am not totally sure about them. I signed up and signed a couple petition because they say they are fighting the ACLU. I think they may have deep pockets and they may be able to fight.

I guess we will see. Somebody has to stand up to the traitors in the ACLU.

And if the ACLU does not like being called a traitor, then maybe they shouldn't give me a reason to do so.



and


And I am going to add the following because I feel I must justify callin' them Commies:

Congress shall pass no law to establish a religion or limit the free exercise of religion. A prayer in School does not establish a religion. An act of Congress establishes a religion. Saying God in the pledge of Allegiance does not establish a religion.

Again, (in case liberals just might happen to read this, I am repeating myself) IT TAKE AN ACT OF CONGRESS TO ESTABLISH A RELIGION. NO CROSS ON A HILL CAN ESTABLISH A RELIGION, ONLY CONGRESS CAN.

When the Commie traitors in the ACLU stop people from putting manger scenes on Public property, then the Commies are limiting the free exercise of Religion. When the Commies stop a pray in school, they stop the free exercise of Religion. When the Commie traitors remove the Ten Commandments they limit the free exercise of Religion.

The traitors are no longer loyal to our Constitution and should be hung, shot, exiled to France and shot again with a ICBM.

Again, I repeated myself so you liberals might understand!
11 posted on 09/21/2006 7:59:39 PM PDT by do the dhue (If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.)
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To: NCjim
This article is garbage. If you want to denounce Baldwin and the ACLU at least get the facts straight. Baldwin broke with communism in 1939. It was his trip to the Soviet Union in 1927 that caused him to realize that communism was a danger to liberty...a fact conveniently left out of the edited quote referring to 1927.

He denounced communism in his book, "A New Slavery", which condemned "the inhuman communist police state tyranny". In the 1940s, Baldwin led the campaign to purge the ACLU of Communist Party members.

Read "A New Slavery" and then tell me Baldwin and the ACLU are communists. I'll agree that the ACLU is too far to the left with its support of the Nanny State, but the ACLU is doing the job that Conservatives should be doing...and that is a sad fact.
.
12 posted on 09/21/2006 8:14:39 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99
the ACLU is doing the job that Conservatives should be doing

This is the way I see it:

Every once in a while, the ACLU does something to protect someone on the right. When the ACLU does something like that, it usually gets press. Then they can sit back and say that they fight for our rights too. When the fact remains that the Commies in the ACLU burn my flag, limit the free exercise of religion, and allow child porn people (perverts), and terrorist rights that I don't agree with.

I think I can protect myself just fine, but I may need some help protecting my country from the ACLU.
13 posted on 09/21/2006 8:24:16 PM PDT by do the dhue (If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.)
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To: do the dhue
Every once in a while, the ACLU does something to protect someone on the right. When the ACLU does something like that, it usually gets press.
The list is longer than you think and it rarely gets press coverage.

When the fact remains that the Commies in the ACLU burn my flag, limit the free exercise of religion, and allow child porn people (perverts), and terrorist rights that I don't agree with
Can you give specific examples?

I'll just skip to the point. I'm a Conservative. I don't want the government in my life. There are those of us who are taking an active roll in trying to move the ACLU to the right. Outrageously biased attacks on the ACLU like this article and the half truths and outright lies vomited by the likes of Bill O'Reilly make Conservatives look like ignorant fools. That plays directly into the hands of the big government socialists.
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14 posted on 09/21/2006 9:07:20 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: do the dhue

"jihad with a law degree" is humorous, but ironic and not very accurate, as far as I can tell. Can you name any ACLU attorneys who are Muslims? There may be some, but I can't identify them offhand. On the other hand, there are lots of Jewish ACLU attorneys. This is something that's not PC to point out, but the truth is that liberal Jews seem as anti-Christian as Muslims, and the difference is, they litigate.


15 posted on 09/21/2006 9:10:27 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: mugs99

Bill O'Reilly is not a conservative. Try again...


16 posted on 09/21/2006 9:29:53 PM PDT by Treader (Human convenience is always on the edge of a breakthrough, or a sellout)
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To: Jay777; Grampa Dave; bitt; FreePatriot; traviskicks

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism.

But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."


17 posted on 09/21/2006 9:44:29 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: neverdem

the ACLU doesn't stand for free speech; it stands against America.


18 posted on 09/21/2006 9:48:09 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: NCjim
"It's a statement that's been repeated and reprinted so many times, some Americans might be numbed rather than outraged upon hearing it again."

From my personal observations, "numb" is the rare reaction.  Too many generations have already passed through the polluted universities where they were brainwashed into thinking that socialism and communism is a good thing and would improve this country.  These naive people (mostly the 19-30 bracket) actually welcome such a change not knowing the realities.

Of those friends I know who have come here (legally) from other countries (mostly European), they know full well what the realities would be.  They fled those realities in Europe and ask, "Where else would there be to run to now?"

Sadly, to many in the younger generations, words like "communist" and "socialist" aren't insults or persuasions to avoid.

19 posted on 09/21/2006 10:11:21 PM PDT by Outland (Socialism IS the enemy.)
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To: Treader
Bill O'Reilly is not a conservative.
That's true, he's a big government socialist. But he claims to be Conservative, he plays to a Conservative audience and he's labeled a Conservative by the media. Like it or not, the public views O'Reilly as a spokesman for Conservatism.

From the article:
"In the guise of protecting our constitutional rights, the ACLU does everything from defending child molestation advocates (as in the case of the North American Man/Boy Love Association in Massachusetts in 2000)"...Bill O'Reilly

This case was about much more than NAMBLA.
The family of Jeffrey Curley sued to have NAMBLA held responsible for the death of their son. They also wanted the membership list of NAMBLA and each member of NAMBLA held individually responsible as well.

If they would have won, the families of the victims of Dennis Rader, the BTK serial killer, would have been able to hold the Christ Lutheran Church, and each individual member of the Christ Lutheran Church, responsible for the murders committed by Dennis Rader.
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20 posted on 09/21/2006 10:17:47 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: NCjim

"ACLU founder and longtime executive director Roger Baldwin's infamous quote still haunts his organization today, a quarter-century after the radical activist's death:

"I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal." "

Well, nothing has changed since it's inception................................


21 posted on 09/21/2006 10:20:57 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Our troops will send all of the worlds terrorists to hell in a handbasket with no virgins!)
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To: NCjim

If the ACLU did not bring a lawsuit against LOGAN airport for racial profiling pre-9/11/01, and the climate of political cowardice did dictate the then-current climate, Bush's biggest problem on 9/22/06 would likely be mid-term elections.


22 posted on 09/21/2006 10:34:08 PM PDT by Captainpaintball
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To: mugs99
"I am for socialism, disarmament and ultimately for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

Roger Baldwin made that quote in 1987.

...the ACLU is doing the job that Conservatives should be doing...and that is a sad fact.

The goal of the ACLU is to use our freedoms and (to distort) our generous legal system to the absurd extreme against us, and undermine the country. I wouldn't say Conservatives are doing this, but REPUBLICAN'Ts like McCain and Graham ARE doing just that with these suicidal interrogation rule changes.

23 posted on 09/21/2006 10:42:34 PM PDT by Captainpaintball (Maybe we DON'T wish to keep our republic, Mr. Franklin!!!)
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To: Captainpaintball

mis-type. He died in 1981.


24 posted on 09/21/2006 10:48:36 PM PDT by Captainpaintball (Maybe we DON'T wish to keep our republic, Mr. Franklin!!!)
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To: mugs99

Bill O'Reilly is a registered Independent, and has continually proclaimed his party allegiance since The Factor's inception. These facts are well known public knowledge. The only "public" that views O'Reilly as a conservative- are liberals.


25 posted on 09/21/2006 10:53:06 PM PDT by Treader (Human convenience is always on the edge of a breakthrough, or a sellout)
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To: mugs99
I was wrong about the date of the quote. But he did embrace Ho Chi Minh in the 60s, as well as help lead the movement for the US to UNI-laterally disarm itself of nuclear weapons in the 70s.

Here is the FULL quote which earned him eternal infamy: Here is the full quotation:

“I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately, for abolishing the state itself as an instrument of violence and compulsion. I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the properties class, and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal. It all sums up into one single purpose -- the abolition of dog-eat-dog under which we live. I don't regret being part of the communist tactic. I knew what I was doing. I was not an innocent liberal. I wanted what the communists wanted and I traveled the United Front road to get it.”

I think his anti communist actions were a smokescreen to protect his ass, quite frankly. For example, he joined the battle against McCarthy in the 50s, after, I believe, he knew what the outcome would be, and felt safe.

26 posted on 09/21/2006 11:12:40 PM PDT by Captainpaintball (Maybe we DON'T wish to keep our republic, Mr. Franklin!!!)
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To: Captainpaintball
Roger Baldwin made that quote in 1987
Roger Baldwin died on August 26th, 1981. The quote is from his speach to the American Union Against Militarism in 1917.
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27 posted on 09/21/2006 11:14:23 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Treader

Conservative is not party. Conservatism began as a Libertarian movement. There are many Independent as well as Libertarian and Republican Conservatives.


28 posted on 09/21/2006 11:19:40 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

Sure, and NAMBLA equates the Lutheran Church.


29 posted on 09/21/2006 11:22:49 PM PDT by Treader (Human convenience is always on the edge of a breakthrough, or a sellout)
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To: Captainpaintball
I think his anti communist actions were a smokescreen to protect his ass, quite frankly. For example, he joined the battle against McCarthy in the 50s, after, I believe, he knew what the outcome would be, and felt safe.
He condemned communism in his book "A New Slavery" in 1939.
He led the campaign to purge the ACLU of Communist Party members in the 1940s.

help lead the movement for the US to UNI-laterally disarm itself of nuclear weapons in the 70s.
Yes, he was a pacifist.

I was wrong about the date of the quote. But he did embrace Ho Chi Minh in the 60s
They were old friends. Ho Chi Minh was our ally during WWII. Minh consulted with Baldwin when he wrote the Vietnamese Constitution. It is a duplicate of ours. Minh wanted Viet Nam to remain an ally and trading partner of the US. Truman rejected Minh and gave Viet Nam to France.
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30 posted on 09/21/2006 11:42:53 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Treader

No, the law would have equated the Lutheran Church.


31 posted on 09/21/2006 11:44:56 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

Is that a fact? Has the Lutheran Church ever expoused the serial killing of anyone, much less that of/by BTK? NO! Does NAMBLA expouse the serial rape of children? YES! Now, mugs99- can you discern the difference in comparsion?


32 posted on 09/21/2006 11:54:39 PM PDT by Treader (Human convenience is always on the edge of a breakthrough, or a sellout)
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To: Treader

I gave you the facts of the case. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.
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33 posted on 09/22/2006 3:53:17 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

Thank you for the studious effort. I just may need a bit more skoolin'.


34 posted on 09/22/2006 4:26:02 AM PDT by Treader (Human convenience is always on the edge of a breakthrough, or a sellout)
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To: churchillbuff
but ironic and not very accurate, as far as I can tell

Well, I think the reference is that both Jihad and the ACLU would destroy Christianity given the opportunity.
35 posted on 09/22/2006 7:29:25 AM PDT by do the dhue (If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.)
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To: mugs99
Lets say they do the correct thing 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time the Commies are doing things to destroy me from within. It's kinda like Hugo coming over here and giving oil to the poor. That does not make up for all the things he said about my President.
36 posted on 09/22/2006 7:31:08 AM PDT by do the dhue (If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.)
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To: NCjim

"In the 1930s, Congress investigated the ACLU and found it to be "closely affiliated with the communist movement in the United States, and fully 90% of its efforts are on behalf of communists who have come into conflict with the law." According to the congressional investigation's conclusion, "It claims to stand for free speech, free press and free assembly, but it is quite apparent that the main function of the ACLU is to attempt to protect the communists in their advocacy of force and violence to overthrow the government."


37 posted on 09/22/2006 7:54:25 AM PDT by ScreamingFist (Annihilation - The result of underestimating your enemies. NRA)
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To: do the dhue

Sure, we can say that. And we can work to change things. But let's keep our facts straight to make sure we have the credibility to win.


38 posted on 09/22/2006 8:01:08 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Treader
Thank you for the studious effort. I just may need a bit more skoolin'.
Lol...I see you have a sense of humor and that's a good thing!
I only want those who oppose bad ACLU policy to base their opposition on fact. That's why I credit the ACLU when they deserve it. I would like to see the ACLU take an active role in defending the 2nd amendment, the original intent of the Commerce Clause and self determination of the states.

The membership determines the priority of cases and liberal members outnumber conservative members...but the conservative base is growing.
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39 posted on 09/22/2006 8:14:06 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Captainpaintball

I noticed I gave you the date for the wrong quote. It's from the interview in '27.


40 posted on 09/22/2006 8:26:05 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: do the dhue
ACLU would destroy Christianity
The majority of the ACLU membership is Christian. Roger Baldwin was an ordained Presbyterian minister.
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41 posted on 09/22/2006 8:31:53 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Fedora; Cincinatus' Wife

ping


42 posted on 09/22/2006 8:36:17 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude Adjustments Offered Here Free of Charge)
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To: mugs99

As long as the ACLU uses the Constitution as an ideal (or pretends to), they are bound to at least occasionally do something right.

The only thing is, my impression is that their actual intent is to use the Constitution in such a way that it would destroy the original concept and ideals for which the document was written.

I don't know whether or not the ACLU follows the "Constitution is a living breathing document" mantra, but I assume they do, adapting it as needed to fit whatever cause they may espouse.

I strikes me that there is not very much hard knowledge here on FR regarding the actual inner thinking of ACLU leadership, beyond the observation of their actions.

I personally know only one ACLU card carrying member; he is an avowed socialist. A very nice person, strangely.


43 posted on 09/22/2006 8:48:17 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Don't mix alcopops and ufo's)
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To: Sam Cree
It strikes me that there is not very much hard knowledge here on FR regarding the actual inner thinking of ACLU leadership, beyond the observation of their actions
No, there isn't. I was one of the ACLU haters here on FR. It was not until I lost a bet on Conservative members of the ACLU that I delved deeper into it. Did you know that the ACLU works with the American Conservative Union?

I too believed the ACLU was a bunch of commie Christian haters. I was literally shocked to find out I was wrong. I think the impression that the ACLU supports a living Constitution comes from the cases that make the news. Very few ACLU cases are ever mentioned by the media. The ACLU is the only organization in the country that actively defends the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They may not do as good a job as we would like, but they're the only game in town.

I personally know only one ACLU card carrying member; he is an avowed socialist. A very nice person, strangely.
Lol...Nothing strange about it. The ACLU has an abundance of socialists and so does the Democrat and Republican parties. The difference is that he admits it. Most socialists, including those here on FR, don't even think of themselves as socialists let alone admit it.
Like it or not, and being a libertarian I don't, we are a socialist nation and have been since the thirties.
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44 posted on 09/22/2006 9:46:50 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

I can't say that I know who the American Conservative Union is.

I don't know if we are exactly a socialist nation, but we certainly are in many ways, even the most fundamental one - we seem to have adopted the concept that a central authority such as the federal government should shape and arrange society in the interests of the common good. Our president himself is a follower of that concept as far as I can tell. So, I believe, is most of the nation, conservative or liberal alike...this indicates to me a general lack of actual undelying guiding principles, which the citizenry should be using, but aren't, as reference for deciding what role of government should play in whatever current issues compete for attention. But given that, no wonder they expect some authority to decide everything.

Interestingly, I have heard my socialist friend (retired college prof, of course) refer to himself as a "closet Republican," - he's a supporter of RKBA, an opponent of affirmative action, and thinks we ought to "nuke the terrorists." OTOH, he usually follows the Dem Party line, although he thought Clinton should have resigned.

Conversely, I am also friends with an elderly couple who escaped from a Warsaw Pact nation many years ago and made their way to the US. They explicitly refer to Bush as a socialist. I relayed that comment to my socialist friend, who enjoys discussing politics with me - after some relflection, I think even he is ready to agree.


45 posted on 09/22/2006 10:17:07 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Don't mix alcopops and ufo's)
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To: Sam Cree
They explicitly refer to Bush as a socialist.
They're right, he is.

Interestingly, I have heard my socialist friend (retired college prof, of course) refer to himself as a "closet Republican," - he's a supporter of RKBA, an opponent of affirmative action, and thinks we ought to "nuke the terrorists."
Lol! Closet Republican...I like that.
.
46 posted on 09/22/2006 10:25:02 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99
Then answer me this:

Congress shall pass no law to establish a religion or limit the free exercise thereof.

A cross on a hill or a prayer in school or the ten commandments in a court room does not establish a religion. Only an act of Congress does.

If you take down the Cross on the hill, or remove prayer from school, or remove the ten commandments, then you limit the free exercise thereof.

If you are Christian, why in the world would you stand for limiting the free exercise of religion? Are the 'Christians' in the ACLU truly Christian or am I just hearing spew?

Actions speak louder then words.
47 posted on 09/22/2006 11:26:36 AM PDT by do the dhue (If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.)
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To: do the dhue
A cross on a hill or a prayer in school or the ten commandments in a court room does not establish a religion. Only an act of Congress does.
I agree with you on the cross on the hill, and the ten commandments in the court room does not bother me. I don't even care about the school prayer.

But, if we allow those then we must allow this:

And this does bother me.
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48 posted on 09/22/2006 11:39:19 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: NCjim
...and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

Isn't this a contradiction?

49 posted on 09/22/2006 11:48:42 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: mugs99
In the 1940s, Baldwin led the campaign to purge the ACLU of Communist Party members.

Did his campaign succeed?

50 posted on 09/22/2006 12:26:41 PM PDT by syriacus (If the Pope meant to insult Muslims he would have discussed mustaches.)
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