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1 posted on 12/04/2006 2:04:30 PM PST by neverdem
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To: Joe Brower
BANG!
2 posted on 12/04/2006 2:05:31 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

I thought the Second Amendment was a sensible gun law.


3 posted on 12/04/2006 2:08:18 PM PST by rightwingcrazy
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To: neverdem

I don't have a problem with someone with a record of violence not being allowed to carry a handgun but the fact that I was arrested for drunk driving more than a decade ago shouldn't mean that I have no right to defend myself.


4 posted on 12/04/2006 2:11:11 PM PST by cripplecreek (If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?)
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To: neverdem

Alaska has a sensible gun law.

HB 102, signed by the Governor on June 11, 2003 changes Alaska Statute 11.61.220 to allow anyone 21 or older, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit.

http://www.dps.state.ak.us/PermitsLicensing/achp/


10 posted on 12/04/2006 2:29:32 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: neverdem
THE UNABRIDGED SECOND AMENDMENT

by J. Neil Schulman

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right ? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution ?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of "American Usage and Style: The Consensus."

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for "Editor and Publisher", a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, "American Usage and Style: The Consensus," has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:

"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the test of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?" [Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' _only_ to 'a well-educated electorate' -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.

As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.

And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely. American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms -- all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the Constitution.

And even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. no one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak ?

Or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortuned, and our sacred honor ?

(C) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited. All other rights reserved.

About the Author

J. Neil Schulman is the award-winning author of novels endorsed by Anthony Burgess and Nobel-economist Milton Friedman, and writer of the CBS "Twilight Zone" episode in which a time-traveling historian prevents the JFK assassination. He's also the founder and president of SoftServ Publishing, the first publishing company to distribute "paperless books" via personal computers and modems.

Most recently, Schulman has founded the Committee to Enforce the Second Amendment (CESA), through which he intends to see the individual's right to keep and bear arms recognized as a constitutional protection equal to those afforded in the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth and Fourteenth amendments.

11 posted on 12/04/2006 2:31:09 PM PST by groanup (Limited government is the answer. Now, what's the question?)
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To: neverdem

So, lets see what laws the anti-gunners have tried to force on us without the NRA stopping them.

1961. Thomas J. Dodd and Emanuel Cellar said...We don't want to take your guns away, we only want to register handguns. Long guns will not be affected.

1964. We don't want to take your guns away. We only want to register all of them!

1968. We don't want to take your sporting guns away. We ONLY want to register them and ban ONLY the import of foreign Saturday night specials and five shot WWII military bolt action rifles!

1968 "Today we make America safe by taking the guns out of the hands of criminals!"...LBJ when he signed the 1968 gun control act into law.

1971. We don't want to take your sporting guns away, we ONLY want to ban Saturday night specials.

1976. We don't want to take your long guns away. We ONLY want to ban all handguns!

(From the original Handgun Control Inc group)...."We only want to control handguns. Long guns will not be affected."

1981. The NRA is a rifle organization! They should give up their handguns! And they can keep their rifles! (Actress Lee Grant on GMA)

1989. We don't want to ban your hunting rifles and shotguns. We ONLY want to ban handguns AND Assault rifles and shotguns.

We ONLY want to ban assault rifles and shotguns AND all fifty cal. rifles and handguns!

I could go into more detail but that is plenty. Thankfully the NRA has been a lightning rod for such claims.

For those who are not NRA members do you really think you personally have the clout to sway congress and hold off an organized attempt by the Brady bunch and others? Can you come up with enough money to buy air time to counter the false claims of George Sorios and his billions?

If not YOU NEED TO BE A MEMBER OF THE NRA!


18 posted on 12/04/2006 2:54:56 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (ISLAM "If you don’t know what you have to fear, you will not survive."---Hirsi Ali)
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To: neverdem; All
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms

REPORT
of the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION
of the
UNITED STATES SENATE
NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
Second Session
February 1982

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

Click here to read the report BY THE SENATE that finds an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT to keep and bear arms

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner."


±

"The Era of Osama lasted about an hour, from the time the first plane hit the tower to the moment the General Militia of Flight 93 reported for duty."
Toward FREEDOM

24 posted on 12/04/2006 3:50:09 PM PST by Neil E. Wright (An oath is FOREVER)
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To: neverdem; 7thson; alarm rider; Albion Wilde; Alexander Rubin; Allegra; AmeriBrit; ...
Ping to those who might support Condi Rice

Of all the potential Presidential Candidates in the Republican Party, only Condoleezza Rice would understand and agree with the above article and defend our Second Amendment rights. She is a self-described "Second Amendment absolutist".

From her interview with Larry King on May 11, 2005

KING: "We have a Second Amendment. People can own guns. By the way, what do you think about gun control?"

RICE: "The way I come out of my own personal experience, in which in Birmingham, Alabama, my father and his friends defended our community in 1962 and 1963 against White Knight Riders by going to the head of the community, the head of the cul-de-sac, and sitting there, armed. And so I'm very concerned about any abridgement of the Second Amendment. I'll tell you that I know that if Bull Conner had had lists of -- of registered weapons, I don't think my father and his friends would have been sitting at the head of the community, defending the community."

KING: "So you would not change the Second Amendment? You would not..."

RICE: "I also don't think we get to pick and choose from the Constitution. The Second Amendment is as important as the First Amendment."

KING: "But doesn't having the guns, while it's protection, also leads to people killing people?"

RICE: "Well, obviously, the sources of violence are many, and we need to -- to get at the source of the violence. Obviously, I'm very much in favor of things like background checks, and you know, controlling it at gun shows. And there are lots of things we can do. But we have to be very careful when we start abridging rights that our Founding Fathers thought very important. On this one, I think that they understood that there might be circumstances that people like my father experienced in Birmingham, Alabama, when in fact, the police weren't going to protect you."

KING: "Did you see him take the gun?"

RICE: "Oh, absolutely. Every -- every night he and his -- he and his friends kind of organized a little brigade."

34 posted on 12/04/2006 4:52:53 PM PST by Solitar ("My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them." -- Barry Goldwater)
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To: neverdem

In Vermont we have sensible gun laws: NONE!


37 posted on 12/04/2006 5:03:32 PM PST by Candor7 (Into Liberal flatulance goes the best hope of the West, and who wants to be a smart feller?)
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To: neverdem
What these "gun control" people don't understand is that to ensure the 1st amendment, the framers of the Bill of Rights added the 2nd amendment. Without the 2nd there is no way (as the colonists found out) to protect any freedoms.
42 posted on 12/04/2006 5:44:50 PM PST by Trunk 71-74 (A god that needs man to carry out his dirty work is impotent!)
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To: neverdem

Ehh, that depends on what you mean.

I don't think it's a good idea for a random citizen to be able to walk into a Wal-Mart and buy an anti-tank rocket capable of blowing up a store or something. If you want to define THAT as a gun, I'd say, no, there are some sensible gun laws.

As far as regular stuff goes? I tend to agree.


43 posted on 12/04/2006 5:46:29 PM PST by zbigreddogz
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
Please read comment# 11, if you think this title is "over the top."

Stem Cells Figure Prominently in 2006 Election

ABOUT THOSE IMAMS(RICHARD MINITER EXPOSE')

Beyond Hegemony More interesting as a series of thought experiments, it doesn't do justice to our current engagement with a resurgent Islam.

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

45 posted on 12/04/2006 6:11:25 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem
The 2nd Amendment protects the rest.
57 posted on 12/04/2006 8:06:37 PM PST by ravelkinbow
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To: neverdem
There's No Such Thing As Sensible Gun Laws

Laws that require ownership of firearms, which were common in the early days of the Republic, are pretty sensible.

Not so long ago, you couldn't vote in Switzerland unless you showed up with your military rifle. Also a very sensible firearms law.

IMHO of course.

62 posted on 12/04/2006 8:35:38 PM PST by El Gato
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To: neverdem
Once again: Gun control is a smoke screen to conceal a nonexistent position on crime. Not one gun has ever leapt out of a holster and shot someone of its own volition. These mayors and groups (and Rudy Guiliani) who support gun control are nothing more than advocates for criminals.

In fact I begin to question if money isn't flowing into the crime advocates' coffers from criminal entities. Must be nice to peddle crack on the street and allow for your clients to rob others to pay for the product. Punishing criminals for their behavior (and I'm talking real punishment here; no more "corrections", that doesn't work) would pretty much dry up the drug money. I wonder how long the crime advocate groups would last after that.
79 posted on 12/04/2006 9:51:23 PM PST by samm1148 (Pennsylvania-They haven't taxed air--yet)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
97 posted on 12/05/2006 5:06:25 AM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism. *NRA*)
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To: neverdem

There are sensible gun laws.

Use a firearm in the commission a crime - +5 years.
Fire a firearm during the commission of a crime - +10 years.
Injure someone with a firearm during the commission of a crime: +20 years.

To that, add Florida style self defense laws and no requirement to retreat.
Finally, wounded or injured perps should have no recourse to civil courts.


106 posted on 12/05/2006 6:01:20 AM PST by Little Ray
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To: neverdem
If you want sensible gun laws, one of the best places to go in the US is (amazingly) Vermont. But seriously, with all of their other liberal and socialist laws and policies, who would want to live there?
114 posted on 12/05/2006 6:18:18 AM PST by CT-Freeper (Said the perpetually dejected Mets fan.)
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To: neverdem
Bookmark. Looks like a very interesting thread.
152 posted on 12/05/2006 9:55:05 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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