Beware the 'Christianists'?

Human Events ^ | 02/28/2007 | Robert Spencer

[ChessExpert]

A new book climbing the New York Times Bestseller List warns Americans of a minority of religious fanatics who are hijacking a great religion and working to destroy the United States Constitution and set up a theocracy in America. Nonbelievers will be discriminated against or even summarily killed.

Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Muhammad Atta? No, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and Tim LaHaye. ...

[papertyger]

You know I'm not trying to insult you Hitman, but you are mistaken.

Think of the comandments like the bill of rights, not a ranking order.

As I said, both offenses were punishable by death in the old testament.

[pray4liberty]

I meant the author of the book, not the writer of the article. My bad. Hit post too soon.

[ChessExpert]

You may be right. If one looks up, one learns which way is up. That can provide one's bearings on other matters.

Liberals. What can you say? Let's turn the clock back to the 1970s. Communists were atheist, anti-market, and totalitarian. The were pretty much the opposite of the United States, and they made their hostility known. The Soviet Union had thousands of missiles targeting thousands of U.S. cities. Each warhead was more powerful than the one used on Hiroshima, by orders of magnitude (10X or 100X or more). China's vast population was under communist control and could populate armies against the US. There was communist military aggression in Southeast Asia, Latin America, and Africa.

What was the greatest danger according to liberal Democrats in the 1970s. Well the Republican Party of course. People like Nixon, Goldwater, and Reagan. Another great danger was American industry that feeds us, clothes us, provides our transportation, gives us shelter, and warmth in the winter. And let's not forget what may have been the greatest danger of all - Global Cooling.

[ChessExpert]

You made excellent points. I just wanted agreement on who you were pointing to!

[theymakemesick]

"My brother suffers from Bush Derangement Syndrome. He is convinced that we currently live in a theocracy and that it should be illegal for any churchgoer to be elected president. "That's what the First Amendment means" he says."

I know how your brother feels, I get so tired of hearing that squeaky call to prayer jingle five times a day and being forced to pray to Satan, I mean Allah. Having to go to Friday prayers, risking punishment or death if I don't. I have heard that Christians, I mean polyhtheists, in America have armed soldiers knock on every door on every street and force the inhabitants to go to government churches every Sunday morning. They are also made to kneel down by their bedside every night and pray, so at least they are being forced against their will to worship like we are.

[HitmanLV]

If all the commandments tie in significance, why isn't that explicit in scripture anywhere? They do appear to be ranked in terms of descending severity if you look at them with a clear mind. That is, murder appears to be more serious than coveting your neighbors belongings, at least to most people.

Also 'adultery' in that context isn't what it means today - it meant a man having sex with a married woman who is not his wife.

The biblical punishment for adultery is indeed death (Leviticus 20:10). But in the example of a married man having sex with a single woman, neither of them has committed adultery under the original understanding of the commandment. Not very fair, especially when life and death is involved.

The truth is, no civilized modern culture considers adultery a capital crime. Many biblical laws are ignored today even by the most religious folks. it's certainly bad and may be grounds to dissolve the marriage, but the only folks who consider it a crime tend to be aligned with the Taliban and those with similar worldviews.

[papertyger]

If all the commandments tie in significance, why isn't that explicit in scripture anywhere? They do appear to be ranked in terms of descending severity if you look at them with a clear mind.

FRiend, you are treading on things that have been the subject of intense study by wonderfully educated minds for literally millenia. Do you really want to be so glib in your assessment?

I don't want to take you apart on this, even with your crack about a "clear mind," but I assure you theology is something you only have a passing understanding of.

For example, if two items cost the same price, how do say they are not valued equally? How much more explicit do you need?

Also, no modern cultures burn witches anymore, either. But that is because they don't believe in witches, not because they don''t think the things witches were supposed to be able to do didn't merit death.

No, the Law was never followed perfectly, but your intent was to criticize some religious people for being more strict than God. I am pointing out your premise is faulty.

[gondramB]

>>Anybody remember "Blue Laws" and no alcohol sales on Sunday?

Any religion "running" things can be a bad thing.

---

You sure you wanted to let that much out about yourself?<<

Assuming that Pete meant "Blue Laws" to be laws based on enforcing a particular religious view and by "religion running things" that he meant theocracy - then I agree with his post.

Laws should be based on the constitutional authority that the people have voluntarily given to the government. The government should not be able to claim power beyond the constitution by claiming religious justification.

As a separate but also important issue our government is not empowered to forbid personal religious expression and has gone too far in some cases claiming a wall of seperation.

[gondramB]

>>If all the commandments tie in significance, why isn't that explicit in scripture anywhere? They do appear to be ranked in terms of descending severity if you look at them with a clear mind.

---

FRiend, you are treading on things that have been the subject of intense study by wonderfully educated minds for literally millenia. Do you really want to be so glib in your assessment?<<

Hitman, fortunately for Christians Jesus clarified this for us.

From the Gospel of Mathew
>>36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.<<

[pbear8]

Well we know who the smart one in the family is.

[PeteB570]

The "Blue Laws" were passed by "Good Christians" because you were not supposed to do "wrong" things on Sunday.

You could swing by the local store on your way home after Church to pick up a few things and go to the check out counter. The girl would start pulling stuff off the line with "you can't buy this on Sunday". Alcohol, nylons, makeup, green scrubbing pads, on and on and on.

And I'm talking the 70s here in NC. The "balance" at that time didn't allow me to do something just because it was Sunday.

If something is wrong then it is wrong every day of the week, not just Sunday. If things are closed because it is Sunday then they should be closed on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

[papertyger]

Let's not forget St. James' contribution, (For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(James 2:10)) though I was not going to use NT references.

[gondramB]

>>Let's not forget St. James' contribution, (For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(James 2:10)) though I was not going to use NT references.<<

Excellent point - that why when I describe what God wants from us I say "to be good to each other, to love God and to ask forgiveness when we do wrong." Because we all do wrong at times. No human is capable of never doing wrong.

[PeteB570]

If you read all of my posts here you will see that we are in agreement.

I am wary of any "religion" that would gain power in any government, as you said a theocracy. Even within the Christian denominations in this country there is a wide range of beliefs. Some of the whacked-out hard liners, if they came to power, could give the Taliban a run for their money.

I believe in the rule of law, and I don't mind it grounded in a Jewish/Christian background.

This subject comes up every now and again with similar feelings on all sides.

[papertyger]

So, pretty much, your definition of "balance" is whatever you approve or not?

The "Blue Laws" were passed by "Good Christians" because you were not supposed to do "wrong" things on Sunday.

Source?

If something is wrong then it is wrong every day of the week, not just Sunday.

Hmmmm. What's the chances your initial assumption is faulty, therefore you conclusion is just as skewed? What if those things weren't sold on Sunday for some other reason than being "wrong?"

After all, Catholics don't eat meat on FRidays during Lent, and it has nothing to do with meat being "wrong." They certainly don't have a problem with alcohol per se. And whether you like it or not, they are Christians.

[PeteB570]

You really are a hoot.

That last post gave me a big smile, just shaking my head now.

No need to duck, it's flying well above your head.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

Anybody remember "Blue Laws" and no alcohol sales on Sunday?

And this was the horror of all horrors? Yes, common sense should be used. Lets do that.

[papertyger]

No need to duck, it's flying well above your head.

Hardly...how's that "source" coming?

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

It's basic marketing.

More marketing terms:

Investment: Spending on any government program where the government runs that program into the ground yet keeps forcibly taking money from tax payers while drastically expanding the program. In use: "We should make **investments** in health care." = Socialized medicine.

[PeteB570]

"Source" for the blue laws?

The source was good ol' southern Christians who wanted all others to do the right thing on Sunday.

Man, you could put the T in Taliban Christians. "My way or the highway". Keep posting, you keep making my point.