Posted on 04/02/2007 11:06:43 AM PDT by neverdem
Some cops aren't happy with the booming ranks of undertrained carriers
Utah's Bureau of Criminal Identification, already overwhelmed by an upward swing in concealed weapon permit applications, is seeing a further wave in demand following the Trolley Square tragedy in February.
BCI Chief Ed McConkie says that after a lag of about two weeks - about the time it takes to attend firearms safety classes and get fingerprinted and photographed - the applications started to pour in for the required criminal background checks.
"It almost doubled after the Trolley Square shootings for a couple of weeks," McConkie says. "We are getting 400 to 500 a day. Before, it was 200-270."
Though Utah has been issuing about six of 10 permits to out-of-state residents, this new wave is driven by Utahns, he says.
"The Trolley Square shootings was a horrific, historic, violent act," McConkie says. "People reacted in different ways. Many people wanted a concealed carry permit and people who had let their permits go dormant reapplied."
Firearms instructor Clark Aposhian says his classes, usually with fewer than 10 students, have swelled to 20 or 30. "Since the 13th of February, I'm teaching easily 150 a week."
Aposhian says he has been asked to train 45 employees from one company and even a large Salt Lake church group. He declined to identify them.
Aposhian says many of his students ask him what they should do if confronted with a Trolley Square scenario. "Do whatever it takes to go home every night," Aposhian says. "There is no expectation [for a concealed weapon carrier] to engage."
If a door to safety is available - take it, Aposhian tells his students. "But if there's a man with a shotgun between you and that door - the situation changes. We do not encourage nor discourage engagement."
If an increased number of Utah citizens are taking comfort in concealed handguns, some police officers are not. Besides the difficulty of differentiating between a well-meaning citizen with a weapon and a criminal with one, Department of Public Safety spokesman Sgt. Jeff Nigbur says officers are trained to respond in life-or-death situations.
"An officer receives a lot of training," Nigbur says. For instance, "Before moving out with guns blazing to help out the situation, an officer is going to take in to account the backdrop - who is behind that drywall that I'm going to put five rounds through? Will a regular citizen consider that? I know an officer does." gwarchol@sltrib.com
Eeeexcellent!
(Picture of Mr. Burns here)
Police Officer's Union does not support the 2nd Amendment.
No encroaching on their sheep herding jobs is allowed.
No mention of the ROP either just a big ole trust us we got your back.
Well worded...
All unconstitutional infringements.
...
"An officer receives a lot of training," Nigbur says. For instance, "Before moving out with guns blazing to help out the situation, an officer is going to take in to account the backdrop - who is behind that drywall that I'm going to put five rounds through? Will a regular citizen consider that? I know an officer does."
Perhaps the officers should work harder to put their rounds ON TARGET, instead of shooting at the drywall. /sarcasm
The spokesman seems to forget that police are NOT sworn to "protect and serve" (i.e.: they have not specific duty to protect someone, per the courts). The police generally do a pretty good job of doing their job, but each citizen is ultimately responsible for his or her own safety. So the police don't believe that the citizens should be able to protect themselves?
Happiness is a tight shot grouping.
Not completely true, and usually cited by people unfamiliar with the law in general.
Cops are better trained than citizens. Just how many COMBAT vets are in Utah, vs how many cops who have only shot at paper targets?
Please spare me Mr Cop Official, Alaska has no license to CCW and I haven't seen any Old West shoot outs.
Maybe, just maybe, because the bad guys know just about anyone could be carrying, things are pretty quiet here of late - excluding the gang on gang violence.
I would lay odds that a lot of CCWers (myself included), train a lot more than your average police officer.
The police are worried???? Wasn't it not too long ago when a bunch of cops fired over 500 shots at a suspect and only a few shots hit their target? I think people are more capable than they want to give credit to.
In my research for a private position paper several years ago, I uncovered hints of a dirty little secret: there appear to be more incidents of the violation of firearms policy by police officers than violations of firearms laws by concealed carry permitees.
My research on this topic came to a end after only meeting a brick wall whenever I tried to get concrete facts and documents on this topic from various metropolitan police departments.
So, until someone else is able to pick up that baton and carry it with some authority, we will just have to let public statistics on the rate of CCW violations speak without any comparison to a "control group" of the law enforcement community.
The record of CCW holders is pretty stunning. In Florida, the rate of abuse was so low that the department charged with keeping the statistics asked the legislature to be allowed to allocate manpower elsewhere.
In Texas, according to an article dated 2000 by the NCPA:
"Licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public - 127 per 100,000 population versus 730 per 100,000."
see:
http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html
There is one more benefit to having a large CCW population: it is a voting block. Once you get your CCW, have carried for a while, and have felt the significant difference between fearing you might be a victim and knowing you don't have to be, you will never want give up your right to choose again (that is, choose to defend yourself rather than surrender).
Oh no.. people getting their CCW...
The person that wrote this story better not look up the req's for my state.. WA, go in, get printed, pay the lady at the front desk... Bingo!!!!
CPL in the mail in under a week...
Yes I do have mine... Though I have no formal training, I do regularly practice with my EDC's... I hope I never have to use EDC, but I for one do not want to be some BS # in a "Mall shooting" statistic...
My wife even agrees that having my CPL is a good thing, and she is neither for nor against firearms... but she's a hell of a shot with the .22
This I find somewhat bizarre. Surely the vast majority of people in Utah are residents, so why would 60% of permit applications come from non-residents? Do California or Texas have laws requiring them to recognize out of state carry permits or something?
Further, they have a legal "out" if they do not respond in time. It's call indemnification.
Under trained? LMAO... I've seen the off-duty cops shooting at one of the local ranges. The safest place to be is standing right in front of them...
When you have the luxury of enough time to assess the situation, taking the backdrop into consideration is certainly sound policy.
I've seen enough police videos of shootouts to know that when the adrenalin is pumping and the lead is flying in their direction, there aren't too many cops who appear to be worried about who might be behind that drywall.
Looks like the people know jihad when they see it. And seem to know what to do about it.
AFAIK, Utah has CCW recipricity with the greatest number of states because of their training requirements. Folks here in GA, have been running classes for GA residents to get a Utah permit to make up for the LACK of reciprocity enjoyed by GA permits.
A lot depends on reciprocity. Some states only recognize the permits from a few other states. Others will recognize a much broader range.
Florida's permit was more widely accepted than most others for years, so they wound up issuing a lot of permits to out of state applicants.
Undertrained? they watched the governments video on firearms didn't they?
(Picture of Mr. Burns here)
Here is an excellent pic of C. Montgomery, per your suggestion:
Concealed-gun demand skyrockets after shootings.....in Boston.
One can dream. Got a whole lot of shootings lately.
What does the comment about issuing to out of state residents mean? Can a non-Utahian get a permit?
Looks like permit requests go up every Jan to Feb, and Feb to March... and that every year was higher than the year before (with 2004 being the lone possible exception).
While us "civilians" may not be familiar with the subtle nuances that allow LEOs to slide out from under their assumed responsibilities, we are all painfully aware of badge-heavy thugs with guns, that engage in legalized highway robbery behind "It's for your own good" propaganda.
Depends. If negligence, generally yes. If not, generally no.
Orrin Porter Rockwell used to take care of that sort of matter for the LDS Church in its earlier days in Utah, to include the assassination attempt on Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggson on 6 May 1842, on which charges Rockwell was acquitted.
It's surprising that Utah Mormons might need to outsource their training now. Perhaps it's the local Buddhists.
I think you'll find, if you're being honest, that police tend to protect their own, regardless. The sad part is that while EVERYBODY knows, LEOs think civilians are too stupid.
"An officer receives a lot of training," Nigbur says. For instance, "Before moving out with guns blazing to help out the situation, an officer is going to take in to account the backdrop - who is behind that drywall that I'm going to put five rounds through? Will a regular citizen consider that? I know an officer does."
How many shots did the responding police fire at Trolley Square? And how many were hits....?
Carry License Reciprocity State By State
Some states offer concealed carry privileges to non residents apparently. I'm no authority on the matter. My friend in Westchester, NY, who has a license for simple possession issued from his county, has some sort of Florida license. I guess it's a concealed carry. I don't believe you need a license to just keep a handgun at home in FL.
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/FLSL.pdf
Thanks.
Put me on that list - just got my first CCW piece, and I'm at the range twice a month (all I can afford, what with having to use "indoor range ammo" and all). The comfort level with carrying increases directly with the amount of time you spent firing the thing.
Colonel, USAFR
That photo catches the eye. Who do you think I thought posted it? Take a look in the mirror. Take care.
Actually, Texas has reciprocity agreements with most other states, our neighbor directly to the west not among them. I drive to Colorado to do my reserve duty, and I hide my weapon while cutting the corner of NE New Mexico. Colorado has reciprocity. Don't get me started on then having to check my piece into the armory at Peterson AFB.
Colonel, USAFR
Florida's permit was more widely accepted than most others for years, so they wound up issuing a lot of permits to out of state applicants.
Looks like permit requests go up every Jan to Feb, and Feb to March...
No. Most of them can't hit a quarter, or a cup size profile repeatedly at 20yds.
"Nigbur says: "For instance, "Before moving out with guns blazing to help out the situation, an officer is going to take in to account the backdrop - who is behind that drywall that I'm going to put five rounds through? Will a regular citizen consider that? I know an officer does."
LEOs don't always , and in plenty of cases they don't. I've seen cases where they fire repeatedly at unarmed suspects that are in the middle of a crowd. Your claim is simply an attempt to demean those that have decided to defend themselves against your desire that they shouldn't be allowed to.
Many California residents get Utah CCWs, so they can carry in Utah and the many states that have reciprocity with Utah. They still generally can't legally carry at home in CA.
"And it tells us we should be wary of any candidate who can't pass muster with the NRA/GOA/RKBA organizations."
I agree, but there are some notable exceptions, like Webb. From what I have seen, many people are taking their CCW training very seriously. For example:
http://www.sigarms.com/EducationTraining/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?cid=7&ccid=10
And I can't recall very many stories at all about CCW holders trying to play law enforcement. My courses all emphasize DEFENSIVE handgun use. I can think of several stories off-hand though where cops unloaded several magazines into unarmed "suspects" (several in NYC), where cops shot fleeing suspects in the back (New Orleans), etc.
Seems that some police are seriously undertrained also.
I think many cops hate the idea that responsible people own handguns. That pesky Second Amendment, and all....
I'd ask around on the forums at packing.org, and perhaps at thehighroad.org and thefiringline.com
I live in Mass. I am envious.
The purpose of the second amendment was to ensure a "well regulated militia" to ensure that we the people remained a "free state."
Nowadays, people forget we were to remain free from our own government's overreaching. As much as I appreciate our boys in blue, I draw the line when they express fear that we law abiding citizens are experiencing to much freedom.
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