Romney Can't Ignore Questions About Mormonism

RealClearPolitics ^ | 8/20/2007 | Mark Davis

[mojito]

Even though Mitt Romney can't seem to dislodge Rudy Giuliani atop the national GOP polls, and can't even draw as much poll support as Fred Thompson, who isn't even running yet, there is an understandable anticipatory buzz about him.

He may well be the eventual choice of his party if the Thompson phenomenon fizzles or if Giuliani supporters simply grow weary of navigating the obstacles posed by his past and his politics.

In an appearance in Texas last week, I saw Romney energize a crowd with just the kind of speech a GOP nominee should give-- strong and unapologetic on the war, upbeat and resolute about the future. This is a typical Romney performance, and it earns him speculation that he has nowhere to go but up.

This is wholly deserved. But the issue of his religion, which some say has been overplayed, has in fact not been addressed with nearly the thoroughness and honesty that will be necessary to satisfy some in the Republican voting base.

It has not been addressed well by the candidate, and it has not been handled honestly by pundits. Until it is, it lurks as a torpedo that could spell the doom of his promising candidacy.

[lady lawyer]

I don’t know for sure. I just know what you have said.

I remember that long ago you said something about being a member, andI said that, if you hate the church so much the only honest thing to do was have your name taken off the rolls, and asked why you didn’t do it. You said something about being afraid of the reaction from your family, or something. I don’t remember exactly what.

I haven’t kept up on your status. But, apparently, you have taken my suggestion. Good move.

[colorcountry]

But, apparently, you have taken my suggestion. Good move.

Yep.....it's all about you. LOL

[colorcountry]

.... From another chat site.

It's not just Romney who acts this way about Mormonism. It is all Mormons in general. They are very uncomfortable discussing their religion when someone questions it. They want it to look the very best it can and they are constantly afraid of saying the wrong thing, or being truthful about it but having others think it is way out there weird. Don't they whine a lot about people not understanding their religion? Well, here's a chance and they balk at it. No one seems to be truly comfortable in their Mormon religion. If they were, they would discuss it with ease, not feel the need to defend it, and let the cards fall where they may.

I can remember working one summer as a student before I was going on to BYU. The people I worked with were very curious about Mormonism when they found out I was Mormon. Quite natural, considering most people think of polygamy. Well, I tried to answer their questions as best I could and looking back now, they didn't ask difficult questions at all, but one guy commented that I don't need to feel so embarrassed, because I was getting red in the face and shaky when I was talking to them. Part of it could be I was never one to like the spotlight and have attention directed at me, but I think it was true that I felt very defensive and unsure thinking how weird it must sound to them.

If Romney can't see the point this author is making, well then it's his loss. You can't be believing in a weird religion and not expect people to have curiosity about and want to know more. If anyone goes to lds.org, they will be frustrated since it doesn't answer any questions and says go talk to a member. Kind of a runaround way; members don't want to answer your questions and apparently neither does the church. That just means they will find this site and have everything made clear. Yeah!

[definitelynotaliberal]

The amazing thing is that there are people way high up there who buy into all that cult nonsense such as the CEO of Jet Blue and the COO of American Express. And these are (otherwise) reasonable, accomplished people.

I just read Jon Krakauer’s Under the Banner of Heaven. It was eye-opening. I’m having a very hard time believing that Romney can buy into all that without any archaeological data at all. And in the Doctrine and Covenants, it resembles the Hadith of the muslims. All the multiple marrying is also similarly reminiscent thereof, albeit not so much as the way that the founder Joe Smith attempted to convince wife Emma. Entirely too kooky, but I won’t hold it against Romney. My opinion is that of another poster who said that he believes adherents of all religions but Islam to be able to keep their religion out of the way the office.

[Turret Gunner A20]

RE: # 51

Do Mormons believe that they will one day become like God and populate their own planets?

Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual brother of Satan?

You seem to be the expert here -- how about your answering those questions for us -- I'm truly interested in finding out.

[bigcat32]

Are you a Mormon? Please answer those questions. I am not a Mormon but I’ve read accounts of ex-Mormons and I’ve read about the Mormon religion and why people think it’s a cult. Thank you.

[Turret Gunner A20]

RE: # 68

Something like the proverbial reformed drunks or the ex-smokers, huh? Never could stand those, myself.

[colorcountry]

Read this speech hosted by an LDS site and tell me if Mormons worship the same Jesus Christ.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

Here are some very telling exerpts:

True and saving worship is found only among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead and who understand the true relationship men should have with each member of that Eternal Presidency.

The creeds of Christendom illustrate perfectly what Lucifer wants so-called Christian people to believe about Deity in order to be damned.

These creeds codify what Jeremiah calls the lies about God (see Jeremiah 16:19; 23: 14–32). They say he is unknown, uncreated, and incomprehensible. They say he is a spirit, without body, parts, or passions. They say he is everywhere and nowhere in particular present, that he fills the immensity of space and yet dwells in the hearts of men, and that he is an immaterial, incorporeal nothingness. They say he is one-god-in-three, and three-gods-in-one who neither hears, nor sees, nor speaks. Some even say he is dead, which he might as well be if their descriptions identify his being.

These concepts summarize the chief and greatest heresy of Christendom. Truly the most grievous and evil heresy ever imposed on an erring and wayward Christianity is their creedal concept about God and the Godhead! But none of this troubles us very much. God has revealed himself to us in this day even as he did to the prophets of old.

Thus there are, in the Eternal Godhead, three persons—God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Testator. These three are one—one God if you will—in purposes, in powers, and in perfections. But each has his own severable work to perform, and mankind has a defined and known and specific relationship to each one of them. It is of these relationships that we shall now speak.

1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else..... ...We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. ...

3. Christ himself loves, serves, and worships the Father. .... Though Christ is God, yet there is a Deity above him...

5. Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father. ... After the Firstborn of the Father, while yet a spirit being, had gained power and intelligence that made him like unto God; ...

Of our Lord’s life while in this mortal probation the scripture says:

He received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness.

Finally, after his resurrection,

he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

[bigcat32]

FYI:

Mormon Beliefs, are they Christian?
There’s a lot of discussion about Mormon beliefs. So, in order to make this easy, I will list out what Mormonism actually teaches quickly and easily. These are not sensationalized, and inaccurate statements.

Following documentation from Mormon authors. Finally, please understand that the Mormon Church uses Christian terms but has radically changed the meanings of those terms. So, when it says that Mormons belief in the father the son and the Holy Spirit, they really saying they believe in a God from another planet, with a goddess wife, who literally as the father of Jesus, and that there is a spirit being, of the Holy Ghost, and is another God.

These are Mormon beliefs
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet and came to this world with his wife (she became a goddess), and that they produce a spirit offspring in heaven. These spirit offspring, which includes Jesus, the devil, and you and me, are all brothers and sisters born in the preexistence. The preexistence spirits come down and inhabit babies at the time of birth and their memories of the preexistence are lost at the time. Furthermore, faithful Mormons, who pay a full 10% tithe of their income to the Mormon church and go through a Mormon temples, have the potential of becoming gods of their own planets and are then able to start the procedure over again.

Is it Christian? No.
If you were to go to any Christian bookstore and look in the non-Christian cult section you will see numerous books on Mormonism that document Mormon beliefs as aberrant and un-Biblical. The Mormon Church is not considered a Christian church.

This is not simply an opinion that they are false. It is a fact that they teach abberant and unchristian theology. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things.

The Bible does not teach that God came to another planet, or that he has a goddess wife, or that we can become gods. In fact, the Bible clearly and definitely contradicts those teachings. But, Mormon Church responds by saying that the Bible is not really trustworthy, that the true faith was lost, and that its leader, Joseph Smith, restored the so-called “true” Christian faith: god from another world, becoming gods, goddess mother, etc. Of course, the Mormon Church’s claim is not true.

One question to ask the Mormon Church as a whole is why is it that it does not appoint a representative to publicly debate and answer the challenges of competent Christians who know not only the Bible, but what Mormonism teaches? Why is it that the Mormon Church refuses to have open dialogue and appoint a representative who would attempt to defend the LDS teachings from the Bible? Why does it refuse to do this? I believe it is because it doesn’t want to be made to look bad.

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.

Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans...” (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)
Jesus
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ...” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Salvation
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.’” (Articles of Faith p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
“We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

[Turret Gunner A20]

RE: # 80 Please answer my questions in post #51 to another Mormon. Thank you.

I would be most happy to do so -- if I were a Mormon, which I am not.

Now, would you please answer my question?

[bigcat32]

See #89.

[Turret Gunner A20]

RE: # 89

Thank you.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The Book of Mormon presents problems that cannot be explained away. Regarding language: 1 Ne. 1:2, etc., states that Hebrews who left Jerusalem and came to the Americas spoke Egyptian. It is a known fact that Hebrews spoke Hebrew, and their records were kept in Hebrew. Egyptians were their enemies. It is as absurd to think that Hebrews would have written their sacred history in Egyptian as to think that American History would have been written in Russian. In Mormon 9:32, 34, it states that the language was "reformed Egyptian" and that no other people knew their language. There is no known language called "reformed Egyptian." 1 Ne. 17:5 talks about fruit and wild honey being products of Sinai desert (called Bountiful). Not possible! 1 Ne. 18:1 talks about ample timber that Jews used to make a ship. There is not ample timber in that area. It was a desert; it still is a desert. 1 Ne. 2:6-9 mentions a river named Laman that flows into the Red Sea. There is no river there and there has not been since the Pleistocene era. Botanical problems are many in the Book of Mormon. Wheat, barley, olives, etc., are mentioned, but none of these were in the Americas at that time. North America had no cows, asses, horses, oxen, etc. Europeans brought them hundreds and hundreds of years later. North America had no lions, leopards, nor sheep at that time. Honey bees were brought here by Europeans much later. Ether 9:18, 19, lists domestic cattle, cows and oxen as separate species! They did not even exist in the Americas at that time. The Book of Mormon also mentions swine as being useful to man. Maybe, but Jews would not think of swine as being useful or good; swine were forbidden, unclean animals to the Jews. Horses, asses, and elephants were not here either. And what on earth are "cureloms" and "cumoms"? No such animals have ever been identified anywhere. Domestic animals that are thought to be "useful" would hardly become extinct. Ether 9:30-34 talks about poisonous snakes driving sheep to the south. The Book of Mormon tells that the people ate the snake-killed animals, all of them! (v. 34). Jewish people could not have eaten animals that were killed that way, since Mosaic law forbids it! Chickens and dogs did not exist here at that time either. 3 Ne. 20:16 and 21:12 talk about lions as "beasts of the forests." Lions do not live in forests or jungles, and they never lived in the Americas. No silk and wool clothing (nor moths) existed, as 1 Ne. 13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 indicate, at that time either. Butter is also mentioned, but it could not possibly exist, since no milk-producing animals were found in the Americas at that time.

http://www.exmormon.org/whylft50.htm

Written by a former LDS translator and her High Council husband, Rauni and Dennis Higley

[George W. Bush]

As a 100% committed supporter of Fred Thompson (and I am that, I'm not just saying that I am), I find all this questioning of Romney's religion to be dirty, mean, underhanded, spiteful and small-minded.

Make no mistake: the attack on Romney's Mormonism is a general attack on religion in general. The production of media on Mormonism and the appearance of so many militant atheist books is all part of the same anti-religious movement among the media, academics and Hollywood.

[MEGoody]

Not an issue, unless you are running for high public office.

I don't see this as an issue period.

If someone a Mormon wants to do personal business with firms owned by other Mormons, I don't care, even if they are running for public office. It's their PERSONAL business.

I'm not concerned about a President trying to steer all government business to Mormon-owned enterprises either. Too many laws in place, too many other layers of people he'd have to go through. Even if he tried it, someone would blow the whistle.

[George W. Bush]

But boy do I love coffee!!!

The sinister java bean is your Dark Master. Bwahahahaha-hahahahaha...

[meandog]

He had draft number 300. Care to call other FReepers with high lottery numbers draft dodgers as well?

He SOUGHT and OBTAINED a deferment from the LDS church to go on a mission to France...this was BEFORE there was a lottery and when he had been classified as I-A by his draft board. He spent almost three years in France, THEN came back when he got a high draft number. His five sons have never been in the military either, but he has claimed their CAMPAIGNING for him in their air-conditioned party bus equals that of the duty a typical man or woman in the militay is doing for our country--BTW a typical soldier in Iraq humps about 50 pounds of gear 18 hours a day in searing 122-degree heat while getting shot at.

[gondramB]

>>The huge problem with Romney being a Mormon is that almost all Christian Conservatives who are familiar with Mormon doctrine will NEVER vote for a Mormon regardless of how well he/she can deliver a speech. Of course this is simply my opinion.<<

You know, I don’t know conservative Christians in real life who express that opinion, I only see it on the net.

I wonder if they feel the same way about Jews and Catholics.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The Christians that I know, do not consider Mormons Christian.

They believe that Mormons belong to a cult. Because of this these Christians will not vote for Romney.

[Rameumptom]

>>He SOUGHT and OBTAINED a deferment from the LDS church to go on a mission to France

Are you of the opinion that a government granted deferment is the same thing as burning your card and smoking weed in England? There are many FReepers who have gotten deferrments. I would prefer that Romney have served, but to try to equate a deferment (which many prominent Pubbies have gotten) with draft dodging is wrong.

Romney has said his two main regrets are not serving and not having more kids.

As someone who has been in the military I would support Romney as CIC.