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"The War" (by Ken Burns) Part 5 of 7; Airing on PBS @ 7PM Central 9-30-07
pbs.org ^ | undated | PBS staff

Posted on 09/30/2007 5:10:22 PM PDT by VOA

Please see following posts for URL links to the
discussion threads for Parts 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the series.

(VOA's boilerplate from prior threads)
All commentary regarding personal experience, family tales of WWII,
and critique of how Burns (and PBS) handles topics are welcome.

Hopefully the threads on the seven episodes will serve as
guides when this large documentary becomes required viewing in
high schools.
Comments on how Burns handled the documenatry (positive,
negative, or neutral) will come in handy when "the younger
generation" sees the series. Especially if Burns takes a
"Smithsonian" tact to some topics...leaving people to wonder
"who the good guys were" during the epic struggle.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: documentary; kenburns; pbs; stephenambrose; thewar; wwii
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Please see following post for helpful links...
1 posted on 09/30/2007 5:10:32 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

they just used the vilest of profanity. Unbelievable.


2 posted on 09/30/2007 5:11:34 PM PDT by balch3
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To: balch3

FUBAR? SNAFU?


3 posted on 09/30/2007 5:15:56 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Have you developed your 2008 bug-out plan?)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

People used the F word in those days? shocking.


4 posted on 09/30/2007 5:17:57 PM PDT by llevrok (Born a ham and never cured.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

Nope. PBS.


5 posted on 09/30/2007 5:18:05 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~~~Jihad Fever -- Catch It !~~~ (Backup tag: "Live Fred or Die"))
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To: WorkingClassFilth
F**cked (Fouled) Up Beyond All Recognition

Situation Normal All F**ked (Fouled) Up

6 posted on 09/30/2007 5:19:57 PM PDT by bruoz
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To: balch3

“they just used the vilest of profanity. Unbelievable.”

Thanks.
For a moment I thought I was having an auditory hallucination.

Thank goodness the niece we’re babysitting wasn’t in the room!

I guess that settles it...I’ll be watching the replay at 9PM after
my young charge is picked up by my brother and SIL.

I’m no prude and use those words occassionally...a couple of times
when I was coming out of the anesthsia after surgery!

Leave it to Burns/PBS to go for an Emmy via the low rode.

That sort of “shock value” is something that PBS would say is
“beneath them” any other day of the week.


7 posted on 09/30/2007 5:20:06 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

Useful links:

Links to discussion threads on Parts 1, 2, 3 and 4 as well as other useful links.

URL for thread on Part 1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1901006/posts?page=1

URL for thread on Part 2 (Monday 9-24-07)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1901629/posts

URL for thread on Part 3 (Tuesday 9-25-07)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1902083/posts?page=1

URL for thread on Part 4 of 7; Airing on PBS @ 7PM Central 9-26-07 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1902654/posts

URLs for PBS websites:
URL to check listing for local PBS stations:
http://www.pbs.org/thewar/broadcast_schedule.htm

PBS website for Ken Burns’ “The War”
http://www.pbs.org/thewar/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_thewarbrakenburnsfilm_2007-09-23


8 posted on 09/30/2007 5:21:50 PM PDT by VOA
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To: llevrok

“People used the F word in those days? shocking.”

Some people. And even yours truly when a surgeon has taken a knife
to my rib-cage.
But on regular network TV, Ken Burns and PBS seem to own the franchise.

I guess Burns never studied the films of Hitchcock.
Intimating is very often MUCH more effective than “just putting it
out there”.
Well, maybe he studied Hitchcock and rejected that “old school stuff”.


9 posted on 09/30/2007 5:27:53 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

bump for now;
I’ll be watching the 9PM re-airing...


10 posted on 09/30/2007 5:29:32 PM PDT by VOA
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To: WorkingClassFilth

> FUBAR? SNAFU?

There are a large number of people who use these terms,
and have no idea that they are acronyms.

Hillary is one of them.

She once described some Clinton White Trash House
scandal as just a “snafu”.

What’s revealing is not so much that she was
apparently unaware of what the “f.u.” stood for,
but the freudian slip about the “s.n.” part.


11 posted on 09/30/2007 5:32:19 PM PDT by Boundless (Legacy Media is hazardous to your mental health)
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To: bruoz

“They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won’t allow them to write f*ck on their airplanes because it’s obscene!”


12 posted on 09/30/2007 5:36:29 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Have you developed your 2008 bug-out plan?)
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To: VOA

Watched parts of a couple of episodes. Saw the usual Japanese as victims in concentration camps story line. Nothing to watch after that apology crap.


13 posted on 09/30/2007 5:39:11 PM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: VOA

Well, the victim parade continues. After reminding us that minorities were the real victims of World War II, we are told tonight that the rest of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines were victims too. Victims of stupid military leaders and of a pointless and senseless war. How much better would we have been if only Harry Reid had been President - we could have surrendered on December the 8th and avoided this tragedy.


14 posted on 09/30/2007 5:44:22 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: KeyLargo

Burns also featured survivors of the Bataan Death March. The Japanese didn’t seem like victims there.


15 posted on 09/30/2007 5:49:22 PM PDT by secretagent
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To: centurion316
I have been a defender of Ken Burns through the first three pasts of this series---that he did not have a political agenda..

But, tonight’s episode is carrying a political message that misrepresents the commitment and courage of the men who fought this war and the officers who lead them.

My father, a Veteran of this great triumph, would be insulted and disgusted. I’ll give this another ten minutes. But, methinks I’m done with it.

16 posted on 09/30/2007 5:49:22 PM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: Right_in_Virginia

I was wrong, we’re not done with the minority victim parade. We are being reminded once again that we locked up the Japanese in Concentration Camps and that blacks served in segregated units. These two facts are the most important things to know about WWII. What do you want to bet that we are not going to be told that the Japanese conducted medical experiments on American POW’s and even ate them. Not important.


17 posted on 09/30/2007 6:01:39 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: VOA
Is it my imagination or does this series focus not on victory against the Axis but on what an oppressive and unjust nation we were at that time?
18 posted on 09/30/2007 6:07:26 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (If martyrdom is so cool,why does Osama Obama go to such great lengths to avoid it?)
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To: VOA

I am done with this. Joseph Goebbels could not have done a better job of slandering what America did in WWII. Unfortunately, this is all that the uneducated masses will see and know. Turning to a very mediocre football game.


19 posted on 09/30/2007 6:19:34 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: KeyLargo

I know a bunch of those folks. You owe them an apology. They withstood with the greatest dignity an imprisonment that’d left you a quivering hunk of useless protoplasmic excrement.


20 posted on 09/30/2007 6:25:51 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Gay State Conservative
Is it my imagination or does this series focus not on victory against
the Axis but on what an oppressive and unjust nation we were at
that time?


My guess is that PBS and Burns agreed to make sure no more than
20 minutes of real war events would pass before another segment to
remind us how awful the USA was. And that we had it coming.

It's also my wild speculation that Burns didn't undertake this
project (a large, tough one) until his sometimes-collaborator
Stephen Ambrose had gone to his reward. I suspect Ambrose would
have looked at this finished product and said "Ken, the millions of
civilians murdered by Hitler, Tojo and Uncle Joe after the war
all ended up D-E-A-D. Those are the real, indisputable victims!"
21 posted on 09/30/2007 6:27:09 PM PDT by VOA
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To: centurion316
If the war had been held up only a short time as it turned out we'd had nukes to drop on Germany and the number of American casualties and deaths would have been dramatically reduced.

I know there are people who think all the death and carnage was some sort of requirement to be worked out existentially, but they are in error.

22 posted on 09/30/2007 6:28:30 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: All

This is total propaganda tonight making American Marines the bad guys. I said to heck with the other episodes because I knew the Director, Burns is a flaming anti-war liberal.

My father, who fought bravely on Luzon, Phillipines, would kick the living crap out of Burns for this travesty tonight.


23 posted on 09/30/2007 6:47:14 PM PDT by WBL 1952
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To: WBL 1952
Interesting response ~ I can only imagine your father thought the war a lark or something.

My mother's eldest brother served in Pelau ~ he said it was crap.

Turned out it was crap ~ a two year long battle with massive casualties for no discernible purpose.

Man didn't come back the same.

24 posted on 09/30/2007 6:56:01 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
If the war had been held up only a short time as it turned out

And who would have known this at the time? What if Germany had produced a nuke first? When you return from your trip to Neptune, let me know.

25 posted on 09/30/2007 6:56:25 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: WBL 1952

I agree with your post.

My Dad would have watched every moment of this ...I am glad he was spared this insult.

I was going to buy this series. Now not only will I save my money, but I will not waste my time watching one more minute of Mr. Burns’ great delusional adventure.


26 posted on 09/30/2007 6:58:22 PM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: centurion316
Joe Stalin knew. He was more worried about the Japanese program and actually had Sorge reveal the identity of a Japanese government spy in the Manhattan program to us (guy was English I believe).

The Japanese were almost as close to building nukes as we were and had construction underway on giant submarines that could carry planes close enough to the US to mount raids.

But that'd been on the West Coast ~ which was terribly underpopulated and undeveloped at the time ~ not a major threat to most Americans or their property.

Few extra billion bucks in the project, and we could have had those bombs earlier and been bombing Berlin in late 1944.

27 posted on 09/30/2007 6:59:42 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: VOA

Thinly veiled anti war revisionism. Burns is the military’s equivalent of a “jock sniffer”.


28 posted on 09/30/2007 7:03:54 PM PDT by wrench
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To: VOA

The Joe Medicine Crow was a bit of sunshine.
Extending mercy and fulfilling the four requirements to be a cadidate
for chief...pretty good.

And totally consistent with the Indians (yeah, Native Americans)
my dad grew up with in Oklahoma.
I don’t know the number, but the Indian males sign up at a high percentage
for a military hitch...in war or peace.


29 posted on 09/30/2007 7:05:48 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

I have to agree with most of the negative posts. I was pretty fed up after the 2nd part but continue to watch. Tonight reached new lows. Thought I saw Kerry once or twice. The narration seems to be where the crap comes from not the Vets that are doing the talking.


30 posted on 09/30/2007 7:12:04 PM PDT by Snoopers-868th
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To: VOA

The constant identity politics are beginning to grate on me. It’s never enough just to report shared experience, everything must be filtered through a cultural identity. It’s never “In the war, I experienced....” It must always be stated as “As a member of X group, in the war I experienced...”


31 posted on 09/30/2007 7:14:42 PM PDT by denydenydeny (Expel the priest and you don't inaugurate the age of reason, you get the witch doctor--Paul Johnson)
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To: KeyLargo
Watched parts of a couple of episodes. Saw the usual Japanese as victims in concentration camps story line. Nothing to watch after that apology crap.

I flipped to the series at a truly random time. The show was in the throes of Japanese internment. I thought it was the height of atrocious luck on my part, but I lost all desire to see more, and I managed to avoid melancholy over anything I might have missed. It struck me as a Ken Burns agenda piece. You can have my part of it.

32 posted on 09/30/2007 7:15:25 PM PDT by stevem
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To: Snoopers-868th
The narration seems to be where the crap comes from not the Vets
that are doing the talking.


So far in this first viewing, I tend to agree.

As for the soldier/aviator comments, they are better, even if
it's just from the authenicity of hearing it straight from the
guys who actually there.

The segment on Joe Medicine Crow surely was a refreshing break
from the general "downer" tact that Burns has set for this series.

And I did hold my breath when the pilot read the letter in which
he was coming clean to his girlfriend about how awful his personal
war had become.
I actually breathed a sigh of relief when it was revealed he'd
not mailed it.
33 posted on 09/30/2007 7:20:02 PM PDT by VOA
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To: denydenydeny

"The constant identity politics are beginning to grate on me. "

Image and video hosting by TinyPic"

As a tenured faculty member of color,
I'm inclined to agree.


34 posted on 09/30/2007 7:22:12 PM PDT by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
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To: stevem
I flipped to the series at a truly random time. The show was in
the throes of Japanese internment.


I've done that a few times during all the four previous parts.

Maybe I'm dogging Burns a bit too much, but it seems that if
I had to go away to do a chore and came back 5, 10, or 30 minutes later
and tuned in...it's going to be another "American, The Biased".

Like I said, maybe I'm a bit biased.
I hope some group like The Media Research Center does a thorough analysis
of "The War" and let's me know if "It's Burns" or if "It's me".
with the realistic view of the series.
35 posted on 09/30/2007 7:25:04 PM PDT by VOA
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To: centurion316
Victims of stupid military leaders and of a pointless and senseless war.

That seemed to be the sense of the entire episode.

36 posted on 09/30/2007 7:25:04 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: VOA

Actually, the letter to which you refer I thought was entirely plausable. There was another statement that I turned to my spouse and said. That is hind-sight observation. Can’t remember which one of the speakers it referred to.


37 posted on 09/30/2007 7:29:49 PM PDT by Snoopers-868th
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To: VOA

Well, I don’t know what kind of experience you guys are looking for. We are living in a partitioned society and apparently its important to find veterans from every ethnic group and race so that the show appeals to everybody. Okay, fair enough, I can work around that. As I know from looking at my kids history text thats the way they write history now. I tell him I remember when Sojourner Truth wasn’t considered an important American historic character.

After watching a couple of these episodes now I guess I understand what the Mexican-American community was complaining about. They didn’t get their fair share of representation. If we are going to feature white, black, red, and yellow Americans we damn well better feature some brown. I’m sure there were a lot more people of Hispanic heritage in the U.S. military than Japanese. Its hard to believe that the PBS crew would screw up racial math since they invented it.

The “four towns” approach doesn’t really ring true to me. The woman, (researcher?) who appeared said that method wasn’t working for them so they decided to find some notable World War II survivors like Paul Fussel and hang the story on them, find out where they were from and then work the 4 town angle down from there. They just picked the home towns of their featured veterans.

I mean, its clearly a PBS product, but for all of that it doesn’t seem unwatchable. I’m fascinated by personal stories and memoirs and this does a pretty good job of bringing some pretty interesting stories to the screen. You guys complaing seem like you are really reaching to find something wrong with this.


38 posted on 09/30/2007 7:34:02 PM PDT by Belasarius (Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. Job 5:2-7)
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To: WBL 1952

My dad would have been insulted as well.

What battalion was your dad in? My dad fought on Luzon as well.


39 posted on 09/30/2007 7:41:57 PM PDT by sneakers (This Pennsylvania gal supports DUNCAN HUNTER for President!)
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To: Belasarius

Paul Fussell is a well known anti-war leftist. He is no more the voice of WWII infantrymen than Elton John would be. Just because he served doesn’t mean that his distorted view of what happened has to be accepted.

The one good thing that Fussell has done in his miserable life is to collect and publish war poetry, primarily from WWI. Beyond that I have no use for him and his opinion. I suspect that he was a pretty poor platoon leader.


40 posted on 09/30/2007 7:42:32 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: Snoopers-868th
Actually, the letter to which you refer I thought was entirely plausable.

It was certainly was.
During that segment, I was thinking "Well, Burns had to do it....
produce a counterpoint to The History Channel's 'Dogfights'."

But as I listened, I do think it was good to hear that not everything
in the air was a "tally-ho" affair where the Germans (or Japanese)
always take it on the nose.
Which may be a good tact to take in a documentary...
41 posted on 09/30/2007 7:44:18 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

When Hitch was free of studio era censorship in 1972’s Frenzy, he filmed one of the most explicit disturbing rape/murder scenes of all time.


42 posted on 09/30/2007 7:55:51 PM PDT by Borges
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To: VOA

Maybe I missed my point. The one letter that was not sent was from the perspective of he was in a war of death. He was honest about his feelings and there was no political slant whatsoever.

The other statement was from a guy who actually made a 180 degree turn. He commented something about if our legislators had to experience war, blah blah blah. That is the statement I thought was hindsight—I question that being a battlefield thought although I suppose it could have been. Might be I perceived it incorrectly. Thus, to me the statement was entirely after-the-fact and did not represent what I thought this series was about.


43 posted on 09/30/2007 7:57:39 PM PDT by Snoopers-868th
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To: muawiyah
Turned out it was crap ~ a two year long battle with massive casualties for no discernible purpose.

Not exactly. D-Day on Peleliu was 15 September 1944. Organized resistance was declared over on 27 November 1944, not quite two years.

Your point however has merit. The campaign in the Central Pacific was hamfisted at best. Brute Force and Ignorance, and it cost many American lives, unecessarily.

MacArthur, who gets slammed by Kenny Burns and his buddies was far more judicious in his campaign in the SW Pacific. He tended to attack where the Japanese weren't and bypassed their strong points leaving them to wither on the vine.

But, remember, the idea was to defeat the Japanese and put an end to the Greater Far East Asia Co-Proserity Sphere. This, your uncle, my father, and many others did. What has Kenny Burns done?

44 posted on 09/30/2007 7:58:49 PM PDT by centurion316 (Democrats - Supporting Al Qaida Worldwide)
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To: centurion316
Had the "2" right. Should have caught that right off since the Pacific War was delayed until near the end of the European War.

Just read through a couple of brief references, and the whole thing started with a decision in 1942 that the US would need the small airstrip on Palau.

Amazingly by the time they decided to invade they didn't need that airstrip because aircraft had been improved substantially.

The whole point was it was a glorious battle with a lot of bravery, and it didn't have to be fought ~ just another island that probably should have been skipped over.

45 posted on 09/30/2007 8:07:55 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: centurion316
Kenny's to young and scrawny to have done anything ~ and now he's into an age where roboticization is rearing its head.

In the future guys on couches who look like they're playing video games will be doing all the combat.

We'll have total replay available of every single action.

Historians will lose their jobs too.

46 posted on 09/30/2007 8:09:56 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Borges

“When Hitch was free of studio era censorship in 1972’s Frenzy, he filmed
one of the most explicit disturbing rape/murder scenes of all time.”

I didn’t know that.
But I did read the recent biography of Jimmy Stewart (by Marc Eliot?).
It had a fair bit about the Hitchcock-Stewart work, including a
lot of psycho-sexual commentary about Hitchcock’s casting of “Rope”.
Hitchcock was an “of his own kind” type of director...and sure sounded
like he had some personal kinks he was working out.
So, I’m a bit suprised about sexual violence in “Frenzy”...
and also not all that shocked.

Well, I guess I should restate: too bad Burns doesn’t stick with
the ‘implication” technique of Hitchcock...pre-”Frenzy”.


47 posted on 09/30/2007 8:36:14 PM PDT by VOA
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To: muawiyah
Amazingly by the time they decided to invade they didn't need that airstrip because aircraft had been improved substantially.

from what I understood we were destroying the airfield so Japanese wouldn't use it to attack our forces during the other island attacks.

48 posted on 09/30/2007 9:01:49 PM PDT by Aaron0617
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To: VOA

Related thread on “The War”:

PBS showing right now the Battle of Peleliu during WW2
PBS | 09-30-07 | Me
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1904693/posts


49 posted on 09/30/2007 9:24:47 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA; governsleastgovernsbest
Like I said, maybe I'm a bit biased. I hope some group like The Media Research Center does a thorough analysis of "The War" and let's me know if "It's Burns" or if "It's me". with the realistic view of the series.

I've also tuned into "The War" at random times as other FReepers have said (I haven't watched it straight through). Seems like an awful downer... constant gloom and doom.

I would love to see MRC or NewsBusters do a thorough analysis of "The War" as well. We were also planning to buy the box set and view it at another (less busy) time, but now I'm having second thoughts.

50 posted on 09/30/2007 9:47:07 PM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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