Skip to comments.Look Again At The Frost Facts...And Don't Back Down
Posted on 10/11/2007 11:19:24 AM PDT by icwhatudo
Conservatives often complain that republicans back down, that they have no spine, that they wilt when faced with criticism of "but its for the children!" Will the fight over the S-CHIP expansion veto be a repeat?
Many media outlets and left wing blogs are crowing about all the supposed falsehoods contained in my original post.
Before you go running for the hills, tail between your legs, can we at least take a look at each and every point made in that post? You know, the one that "attacks a 12 year old boy".
I keep hearing how all my info was wrong, how it was all debunked as lies etc etc etc... but really there was only 1 major thing i was off on- the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.
So that's what I was off on. Lets see what I got right:
"Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bushs reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD.
"Graeme was in a severe car accident three years ago, and received care paid for by the government program known as SCHIP-(State Children's Health Insurance Program)"
"I was in a coma for a week and couldn't eat or stand up or even talk. My sister was even worse," Graeme wrote. "My parents work really hard and always make sure my sister and I have everything we need, but we can't afford private health insurance."
Direct quote from article
"His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school prior to the accident"
100% true and now we learn that all 4 attended private school. After the accident, Gemma began attending a new special needs school paid for by the state.
meaning the family was able to come up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 grade schoolers.
Dealt with above.
Confirmation both attended Park found here using edit-"find on this page"-Gemma. It will take you to an article in the schools newspaper about a fundraiser for Gemma class of 16, and Graeme class of 13.
"Here are photos of the school's 44,000 square foot Wyman Arts Center: two galleries, an outdoor ampitheater, Meyerhoff Theater, Macks-Fidler Black Box Theater, practice rooms, rehearsal space, and ceramics, 3-D sculpture, woodworking, jewelry, painting, photography, digital graphics studios, recording studio, and keyboard lab.
In a Baltimore Sun article the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year."
"Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband, Halsey, is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."
Direct quote from article. Somewhat misleading to say he can't get it through work, when he's self employed.
"What the article does not mention is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992
True, under the name Frostworks to 1999/2000 and then, after working as an architectural designer and manager of a small custom cabinet shop, under a new company name. The Baltimore Sun confirms he is presently self employed.
..."so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing firm".
As her employer, he apparently denied her health insurance as well.
Unconfirmed, hence the "apparently". Its safe to say she would not have switched jobs away from one that offered health insurance to one that doesn't.
His company, Frostworks, is located at **** E BALTIMORE ST.
Which it was, and is still is according to Baltimore.com's business search for cabinet makers. Changing the name you use for your company does not change your business location.
"A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999."
"The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL DESIGN CENTER, LLC whose mailing address is listed as *** S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home."
"The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs"
Which leads to the question of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total.
100% true-The fact they receive rental income has been confirmed but the Baltimore Sun did not ask if it was included in their claimed 45-50k combined "income" (though they did ask for access to a tax return and the Frosts refused.)
"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at *** S Collington Ave is unknown but *** S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF.
This has also been a source of many claims of mistaken information. While other blogs or radio shows may have made the mistake of saying all homes in the area sell for 400-500k- or that the Frosts paid 485k for their home, my information was correct. I compared the home to a recently sold SMALLER home only a few doors down that was also an end unit. Citing tax assessments of 260k (which are always lower than market value) is disingenuous. A fellow freeper early in the thread posted a zillow estimate of approximately 350k and Michelle Malkin's infamous "stalking tour" led her to say that estimates of 500k were too high. So much for the idea that the blogger mob were not interested in getting their facts straight. I'm sure all the media trucks Time magazine says are parked near the home will also be called stalkers-right?
"A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job"
100% true. The home remodeling has been confirmed by the Frosts in the Sun article.
with granite counter tops
FALSE-The kitchen had concrete counters rather than granite. The left is really milking this one and its mention in this AP article was the only example they used from my entire post. This is such a silly point and was simply an observation about the photo the Sun used to show the family... but since even USA Today is making a big deal out of it, sigh, lets take a look:
"Concrete countertops are a custom crafted material for high end use and are often specified by designers or architects.
Consumers, in some cases think of concrete as being a cheaper alternative to other available countertop surfaces. Concrete countertops should be sold (or bought) based on being a beautiful, custom, handmade, relatively unique product. Customers going in thinking the countertops will be low budget items will quickly find out otherwise.
Concrete countertops range from $65 to $125 per square foot.
Granite countertops range from $60-$120 per square foot.
So the funny thing is, according to these links, concrete counters are actually MORE expensive than granite so I don't quite get the left's glee on that one.
I'm sure Olberman will have something to say like "Just when you think this story could not get any lower, we are now reduced to arguing cost differences of granite vs concrete countertops". Yep, it is silly. Maybe the AP and USA Today should stop harping on it and instead focus on whether families of higher means than than the Frosts really need tax payer financed health care.
and glass front cabinets
One has to wonder that if time and money can be found to remodel a home
send kids to exclusive private schools,
purchase commercial property
and run your own business
maybe money can be found for other things...
maybe Dad should drop his woodworking hobby and get a real job that offers health insurance rather than making people like me (also with 4 kids in a 600sf smaller house and tuition $16,000 less per kid and no commercial property ownership) pay for it in my taxes.
My opinion. On second look, a bit snippy but the central point is true. There have to be jobs out there with healthplans for someone with:
"over twenty years experience in architectural construction. Fine architectural woodworking/ cabinetmaking Residential and commercial construction. Industrial systems manufacturing, pipefitting, electrical control. Architectural design, CAD 2D & 3D modeling & rendering (Vectorworks/Renderworks)Construction management(All types)."
I know we all would like to be our own boss but sometimes you just have to settle for a good job with health insurance.
Not being a reporter and doing this all in about 3 hours using Google can bring me all the criticism in the world, but to say my info is all lies or has been disproved is not correct. As is the assertion that I somehow "attacked" a 12 year old.
BTW, I hope the Sun spent a little more than 3 hours researching their story.
"I am incredibly thankful," said Frost, who works full time for a medical publishing firm.
Baltimore Sun September 27
"...while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm."
Baltimore Sun October 11, 2007
Why are neither the family home nor their commercial property listed on tax forms as being their primary residence?
Why is the family home listed as the "office" of the Limited Liability Corporation that owns the commercial property?
Why, if the family is so quick to announce how much they earn each year in every interview they do, does the family refuse the Baltimore Sun's request to examine their tax return?
Hmmmmmm, makes me wonder why the Baltimore Sun is not being accused of "attacking a 12 year old boy"?
I’d also like to say something to Mr. and Mrs. Frost. Maybe a media type reading this can get this to them:
I want you to know that I’m truly sorry for what happened to your family. I hope your kids continue with their recovery and I hope your business improves to the point where you will not need the S-CHIP program anymore. I’m sure you are not pleased at my interest in your finances but at the same time I hope you will see there is absolutely no attack on your son contained in my post.
You made a choice to become public figures, to allow your son to be coached to give the democrat response to president Bush’s veto of the expansion of S-CHIP. An expansion that would wind up covering my family as well. As I understand it, his veto does not take away your family’s coverage. Overturning that veto would mean my family would get that coverage.
In my opinion this would take our country further down the road to government run health care. We both have seen what the government has done running the public schools and that is why we both have opted for private schooling.
Your family opted to appear in the Baltimore Sun as a model of the type of family that currently uses S-CHIP, mine could be a model of the type that that it shouldn’t be expanded to. We have a nice home, 2 cars, all 4 kids in private school and are able to spend 2 weeks at the beach each year. I just don’t think its fair for other people to have to pay for my families health care. My wife and I would love to run our own business, but our decisions on employment are usually focused on who provides the best health care first, what we want to do second.
I thought it was important to examine what families using S-CHIP in its current form were like so we could understand if there really was a need to expand it to higher income families. You choose to be that family in the spotlight and I’m sorry you now have to face this examination.
Soon the media trucks will be gone and life will be back to somewhat normal. I keep you and your family in my prayers.
But is someone is injured in a car accident, aren't medical costs from said accident covered by either their car insurance, or the other parties car insurance?
Did the Frost's fail to have insurance on their car as they are legally required to have?
IIRC, concrete counter tops have been featured on This Old House. They even did a feature on how they are made at the old Brooklyn Navy Yard in a factory built as part of the commercialization of that facility. This is not dad pouring ready-mix in a form made out of plywood and 2x4’s. It is a very nice looking product with a high recycle content (part of the show was looking at all the ground up beer bottles used to make the countertop). So don’t let “concrete” make it sound cheaper that it was. TOH does very little on the cheap.
Excellent work, bump!
Read on a thread yesterday. Father lost control of his car on “black ice” and hit a tree. I have no idea what type of insurance he was holding at that time.
Need to see an accident report to verify if the ‘black ice’ is even true.
I've seen no assertions either way on whether the Frost's vehicle insurance met the legal minimum requirements.
That said, they could have had much more than the legal minimun and it still would not have covered medical treatments for two people with severe brain injuries.
And the other "car" was a tree.
PERSONAL INJURY PROTECTION (PIP): Covers medical expenses, including funeral expenses, for you and your passengers who sustain bodily injury and the loss of income of an injured income producer, up to $2,500 per person. The purpose of the provision for PIP is to assure financial compensation to victims of motor vehicle accidents without regard to the fault of the named insured or other persons entitled to PIP benefits. Personal Injury Protection can be waived at a reduction in premium but such a waiver does not apply to a relative under the age of 16 while residing in your household.
So if the Frosts had the minimum mandated coverage, they would have only received $2,500 per injured family member. If their car/truck is new, the lien-holder might require other levels of coverage.
Especially as we've seen that the weather conditions in the days prior to the accident did not lend themselves to producing black ice.
Ironically, if S-CHIP were expanded — or if comprehensive government medical care is introduced; families paying at least an average amount of taxes will pay more for their government insurance than they would have for private insurance.
If the Frosts had been paying higher taxes for S-CHIP, then they would not have had that money available for counter-tops and private schools. If they had chosen to forgo those luxuries in favour of buying insurance — they’d be in the same position as they would have been with the government program. Actually, they’d be better off — because they’d have more choices and probably lower costs with private insurance.
Thats just silly.
But is someone is injured in a car accident, aren't medical costs from said accident covered by either their car insurance, or the other parties car insurance?
Did the Frost's fail to have insurance on their car as they are legally required to have?
It was a single car accident so only the families car was involved. This is important because the legally required insurance is only liability which covers other drivers if you hit them. Since this was a single car accident liability insurance would not have covered it, only comprehensive/collision would have.
Now for the sake of arguement they did have comp/coll coverage chances are they went for the minimum coverage which would put medical at about 50K I think without looking it up. Even if they had a higher coverage though auto insurance would not have covered it all and health insurance would have had to pick up the slack.
From the articles sounds like they have an SUV, living in a good part of town, in Maryland. I don't know the year and make but chances are it was a newer model. In order to only have liability insurance they would have had to either pay for the SUV in cash OR financed it extremely short term (IE 36 month paid off in 6 months for credit purposes only). Both of those cases involve a bunch of cash available that also could have been used to pay for health insurance.
Another option to all this of course is who the car actually belonged to. If the car (like the house) was registered as a business vehicle and the auto insurance was business coverage then an accident in the car during non-business use would also not be covered by the auto-insurance.
Not saying either of these is correct, just saying these are a few possibilities. I'm sure there are more out there as well.
Any further criticism of your work on this Frost story will be ideologically motivated.
Well done, sir.
You are doing a great job! One guy taking on the Rat Party, George Soros, HillaryMatters, and a ton of nutroots. I hope that doesn’t make you nervous. LOL! However, I think all the shrieking on the Left means you have hit home. Don’t worry, you have a powerful ally on your side: The Truth!
To the limits of the policy, which depends on the level of protection the policy owner purchased.
It could be as little as a few thousand dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Depends on how much the insured was willing to pay, but anybody who refuses to purchase health insurance is probably going to be pretty stingy on the amount of automotive insurance they purchase as well.
A catastrophic insurance policy (not health insurance) would only cost $472/per month.
I still feel that the assets should be counted toward eligibilty for all government programs. I am for “means testing.” Once assets (included in networth, which means wealth) have been exhausted then help should be available.
It isn’t right to take others property (through taxation) to preserve their property.
Keep fighting the good fight, icwhatudo!! Thanks for your research into all of this. The fact of the matter is—the main point of this whole story is that the Democrats used a little kid to hide behind and attack President Bush when he vetoed the BullSCHIP thing—THEY should have done THEIR research better and found a ‘real’ poverty stricken family to front their attacks, and not this Frost family, who may or may not be innocent in this story, who knows. I sincerely doubt that, though, the Frosts know they could have had insurance BEFORE the children were hurt, and they chose not to have it...they got help from the SCHIP program (which hasn’t been destroyed by the veto, for Pete’s sake) when, if all the facts were revealed, they probably didn’t qualify for it—let the MSM and tax-spending libs complain all they want. You uncovered facts. They don’t like that, not one little bit. Hang in there!
I was just thinking....I pay about $500 a month toward my 401k. Sooo....with all this big government talk, I should just stop paying that and demand that my pension is paid by our most wonderful govmint. /s
I'd just avoid the entire remolding thing if I were you. A decent carpenter with the right shop equipment can build his own kitchen cabinets at 10th or less than the cost of store bought cabinets. This guy is a carpenter and has the shop tools so it's easily evening / weekend work for the cost of some lumber and hardware. Same with the concrete counters. They don't have to be store bought. A good DYIer can pour them himself.
No doubt with the real estate they own, this family's assets are much larger than a 45k yearly taxable income would typically indicate, but the kitchen remolding job means nothing in that regard.
It depends on the state you live in. In Michigan under the “no fault” law all (100%) of the medical costs would be paid, plus lost wages are covered.
It doesn’t matter who is at fault.
At a minimum you have raised the issue of the propriety of folks with significant net worth getting public assistance.
My brother has significantly less net worth than this family of 6 and yet he not only pays for his own health insurance but he, like so many others, has to contribute to the health insurance of others with higher net worths. It is the height of absurdity.
You, my friend, have nothing to apologize for or be defensive about.
Hopefully some good will come out of this kerfluffle like asset tests and the requirement for those taking public money to supply the public with balance sheets and income statements.
Having said that I wish nothing but the best for the injured children in their efforts at recovery. It really isn't very hard to separate the children from the politics if one has half a brain, which of course rules out that half of America prone to use children to advance their politics.
Absolutely correct. Granite began fading as a preference for many up-scalers who were putting in new kitchens when it became more publicized that granite can actually be pourous enough to hold bacteria. Over the past three or four years people have been opting for sealed concrete and other faux granite look-alike materials. And yeah, it's often a little more expenensive.
In any event, that's a nice kitchen the Frosts decided to put in rather than buy their own health insurance.
I keep you and your family in my prayers.
You're a lot more compassionate than I am. As far as I'm concerned, for helping the Democrats in their agenda to turn America into a Euro-style, secular-socialist welfare state the Frosts can all drop dead. Screw them.
PIP in Maryland has a low minimum requirement, about 2500.00 and I think I read the maximium amount of PIP is 20,000. Nowhere near enough to pay for the injuries these poor kids suffered.
But insurance is an interesting point. I'm sure Mr Frost has insured his home, his auto and his investment property but he chose not to purchase health insurance for his children which he could have at a reasonable rate.
Perhaps the public should kick in for his property insurance as well?
Mr. Frost, also 26, is known as Halsey. He owns Frostworks, a woodworking and furniture-design studio in Baltimore. His mother, Randy Frost, is a quilt artist. His father is the deputy director of design and construction for the City University of New York in Manhattan. The bridegrooms late grandfather Frederick G. Frost Jr. was an architect responsible for several public buildings in New York, including Martin Luther King High School in Manhattan.
Obviously, the entire greedy extended Frost family would rather reach into the wallets of complete strangers than help each other out. This is clearly not an impoverished family. They should be ashamed of themselves.
So, you ARE trying to deny them access to S-CHIP! /S
Nice job icwhatudo. With the MSM little more than a shill for the left, it's nice that a citizen takes the time to pick up their slack.
Good investigative work, the kind that newspapers and journalists USE to do
The only reason you are taking heat from the liberals is because they were caught in a lie. One they can’t defend or spin their way out of!
Their voting base is mostly elite morons with a guilt complex and illiterate poor on public assistance.
They can’t sell this family to most of their base as being poor. It just wont work and they have to lash out at someone.
The more they try to spin, the more people will search the facts. The liberals are going to lose on this one.
Ping to new Frost thread.
“Why is the family home listed as the “office” of the Limited Liability Corporation that owns the commercial property?”
I set up an LLC to buy a small commercial property and did the same thing. Since the LLC is formed before you buy (or close on purchase of) the property, you need your home address, not the building address that you are buying, as the ‘office’ of the registering agent of the LLC.
“Why, if the family is so quick to announce how much they earn each year in every interview they do, does the family refuse the Baltimore Sun’s request to examine their tax return? “
LOL. These guys should be Republicans!
If he lists his home as his business address, then I’m sure he takes a business (Schedule C) offset for the space used.
There are so many things that businesses can take off the top as expenses (utilities, labor, rent, mileage, equipment, supplies, etc.) that farmers regularly are seen in large homes, driving large, new vehicles and also reporting zero income.
Every family should declare itself a business. :>)
Let’s be serious. They are staunch dims, proud and arrogant about every handout received. Shame or even gratitude for handouts is not on the table. They are entitled to it because it’s not your money so be prepared to part with more of it. Thank HER that SHE trusts you with some small part of your earnings and assets.
But you do know that my Hurricanes smacked around your Maple Leafs like a read headed stepchild and tonight Montreal is getting his brothers treatment.
First, the one error you made was minor, and you noticed and corrected it.
I long for the day when the Jackal Pack Press is as meticulous.
You've done good work, and I, and others, appreciate it.
Note well- our "friends" on the Left reacted with silence at first-- because they'd been caught!
Then, the predictable attack the messenger, scream "Liar! Liar!" and dodging and weaving commenced- they hope to so shout over and muddy the waters that the average person will throw up their hands in despair.
It's not working- my formerly Democrat wife- who is very apolitical- is pissed-- I mean really pissed off at this smarmy, cynical use of injured children to justify picking her pocket.
Again, thank you.
How does the IRS handle a $40k scholarship?
I’d like to know why the SUV wasn’t in 4X4 if there were ice conditions?
If it wasn’t equipped with 4X4 in a northern climate, why drive an expensive, big ugly station-wagon?
Four wheel drive WILL prevent loss of control under ice conditions 99% of the time, and anyone that says they wont has never owned one, or didn’t put it in 4X4 before they hit ice!
“How does the IRS handle a $40k scholarship?”
“the family paid a lower tuition amount at the exclusive Park school due to financial aid. This does not change the fact they are still paying for private school, just at a lower rate, while others are paying for their kids health care costs.”
This all have been very enlightening. Thanks for covering it.
So is the scholarship considered income?
I don’t know! I’m a metaproctologist, not a tax lawyer!