Archbishop says nativity 'a legend'

Telegraph.co.uk ^ | 12/20/07 | Sophie Borland

[Oshkalaboomboom]

The Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday that the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men was nothing but a 'legend'.

Dr Rowan Williams has claimed there was little evidence that the Magi even existed and there was certainly nothing to prove there were three of them or that they were kings.

Dr Williams argued that the traditional Christmas story was nothing but a 'legend'

He said the only reference to the wise men from the East was in Matthew's gospel and the details were very vague.

Dr Williams said: "Matthew's gospel says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that's all we're really told. It works quite well as legend."

The Archbishop went on to dispel other details of the Christmas story, adding that there were probably no asses or oxen in the stable.

He argued that Christmas cards which showed the Virgin Mary cradling the baby Jesus, flanked by shepherds and wise men, were misleading. As for the scenes that depicted snow falling in Bethlehem, the Archbishop said the chance of this was "very unlikely".

In a final blow to the traditional nativity story, Dr Williams concluded that Jesus was probably not born in December at all. He said: "Christmas was when it was because it fitted well with the winter festival."

[ALPAPilot]

Whoever has not understood the mystery of Christmas has not understood what is decisive in being Christian. Whoever has not accepted this cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. That is what Francis (Assisi) wanted to remind the Christian world of his won time and every time thereafter.

Pope Benedict XVI

Images of Hope: Meditations on Major Feasts

[Monterrosa-24]

“...all Four Gospels were completed well within the lifetime of msny people who knew Jesus...”

Yes indeed Mrs. Don-o. Even if we cede the latest possible date for John usually put forth as 125 AD then that would still put it within the life of many whose parents were alive when Christ taught. But if we look to the earlier date for Mark it chould have been 55 AD meaning that 25 year old followers of the Lord on Earth would have been only 50 at the time Mark was writing.

[Antoninus]

Ah, Rowan the Fuzzy, Archdruid of Canterbury strikes again.

Calling all remaining Christians in the UK: Rome and the Orthodox churches are still open for business and welcome you with open arms!

[Monterrosa-24]

“...Kind of like the Alabama Sunday school student who asked if Robert E Lee was in the Old or the New Testament.”

Or the description of Stonewall Jackson as living by the New Testament and fighting by the Old.

[Antoninus]

Take it whence it comes. This man is a heretic, the ArchDruid, presiding over a group of limpwristed fairies prancing around in dresses and women in pantsuits with dog collars.

On the nose.

[Armando Guerra]

For an interesting theory on the actual date see http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

They give a June of 2 BC date for the birth with a December 25, 2 BC date for visitation by the Magi. I don't know if they are correct, but the actual date is not important to me. Christmas is when the "Christ Mass" is held to celebrate His birth.

[Antoninus]

The Wise Men found Jesus in Bethlehem and there is no reason to believe that he would have stayed there for a long period of time.

If you've ever tried traveling with a 1 month old, you know what a bad idea it is. Now imagine doing it on foot or on the back of a donkey. It makes sense that the Holy Family most likely remained in Bethlehem for some time and the Magi found them during that period.

[Antoninus]

It was Hippolyltus who first established with certainty, in his commentary on Daniel, written around A.D. 204 that Jesus was born on December 25. Bo Reicke, the early exegete from Basel, pointed moreover to the calendar of feasts, according to which, in Luke’s gospel, the accounts of the birth of the Baptist and the birth of Jesus are related to each other. It would follow from this that Luke in his Gospel presupposes December 25 as Jesus’ day of birth. On that day, the feast of the Dedication of the Temple, introduced by Judas Maccabeus in 164 B.C., was celebrated. At the same time, the date of Jesus’ birth was symbolized, so that with him, who arose as God’s light in the winter night, the true dedication of the Temple - the arrival of God in the midst of the world might take place. --Pope Benedict XVI

Excellent find. What a contrast between Pope Benedict and ArchDruid Rowan the Fuzzy.

[Verginius Rufus]

The Gospel according to St. Matthew doesn't say how many magi--the traditional number of three is based on there being three different gifts mentioned.

There's an early Christian basilica in Ravenna, Italy, Sant' Apollinare Nuovo (6th cent.), which shows the three wise men in a mosaic and gives their names as Balthassar, Melchior, and Caspar. None of them, incidentally, is depicted as black--it must be a later tradition that one was black.

[BuglerTex]

living by the New Testament and fighting by the Old

Now those are words to take to heart. I know the Magi visited the Christ-child. A scholar observed that the life of Christ was the most witnessed ancient event. Just another scientist recognizing Jesus the Son of Mary, of the line of David, as my personal Savior and the culmination of the Law.

[mware]

Wow the Cathedral in Kohn, Germany is going to be amazed that the Magi are not really in their cathedral.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Wow! VERY interesting! Do you have a source for that 55 AD date for the writing of Mark’s Gospel? Did they find something eye-popping in the Qumran fragments?

[Verginius Rufus]

Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.

[steve86]

Well, I will concede that the Mormons are hugely more Christian than this jackass

[ichabod1]

guess that’s it then.

[ichabod1]

He’s no bisop. He’s a swishop.

[TexanToTheCore]

There is a reference to Balthazar in Zoasteran literature at about the right time.

The Anglicans are really coming apart.

[ichabod1]

It snowed in Jerusalem 2 years ago.

[Armando Guerra]

Check the website I cited. They address that issue. They state that date was an error in copying of Josephus’ manuscript. Copies from before 1544 have a different date than copies after. They earlier copies would put the date of Herod’s death at 1 BC. Again, I am not learned enough in the matter to say that website is correct but it is interesting theory and I have not yet encountered anything directly disproving it.

[montag813]

Dr Rowan Williams has claimed there was little evidence that the Magi even existed and there was certainly nothing to prove there were three of them or that they were kings.

Meanwhile, Muslims assert that Mohamed ascended to "heaven" on a winged horse above Jerusalem. Any evidence of this? Nope, and it's not even in the Koran. But I assure you, any Muslim who publicly doubts it would be put to death.