A Question for FR McCain Detractors

FR | 2-23-08 | Bob J

[Bob J]

Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.

FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.

The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.

Allow me to explain.

I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.

[Luke21]

I don’t expect to dissuade one single person from voting for McCain. I don’t have that kind of power. I’m just stating an opinion. I won’t vote for him. If you want to, that’s fine with me.

Yours is just another post, albeit a polite one, telling the people you don’t agree with to “shut up.” You want to support McCain, do it.

[org.whodat]

The good news is that in the real world they are less than 5% of the Republican base and McCain will make up the difference and much more from moderates and independents

Good now you mccainacs can stop bring it up.

[nyconse]

Some of us believe that McCain is potentially more damaging than Obama because we believe he will pursue a Dem agenda. He will continue reaching across the aisle and will ram through leftist legislation-including a new fairness doctrine-by colluding with Dems and strong arming congressional Repubs.

One can expect the Repubs to oppose Obama, but how are they going to oppose McCain? There is no reason for anyone to believe McCain would govern in a conservative or even Repub manner based on the last nine years.

[cripplecreek]

I’m getting the impression you only asked the question hoping to draw out people to attack. And they wonder why people are leaving the Grand Old Plantation in droves. Sheesh.

[MNJohnnie]

Logic has nothing to do with it, it is purely personal and psychological

Got a serious case of project going there child. There is no logical rational reason to support a Democrat Lite candidate like McCain.

The only reason the McCainics are in hysteric about McCain is their emotion based adoration of his military service 40 years ago and an ignorant hysteric fear of the bogeyman myth manufactured by the GOP Establishment.

Basically the McCainbots are saying "gasp, we are lousy but the other side is Satan". Perhaps, but we can fight the Dems in Congress and win. We will be expected to tow the line with Democrat lite McCain out of party loyalty.

But keep screaming your arrogant, obnoxious emotion based bile at everyone who disagrees with your hysteric worship of McCain's resume child. You are much more effective at turning people off your candidate then any openly Democrat activist would ever be.

[xjcsa]

The only candidate that will effective [sic] do that is McCain.

Really? John "Waterboarding is torture" McCain will do that effectively? I'm not convinced.

[NittanyLion]

Why would any conservative try to persuade others to help O or H get elected? This is my main question, you only restated it.

Well, there's your problem. You're using a strawman argument in an attempt to win this debate. If conservatives advocate voting for a third-party, then they're simply advocating voting for that candidate. That isn't persuading others to "help O or H get elected".

Now, if a group of people were actually on this site arguing that we should vote for Hillary or Obama, then your argument would hold. But I've seen very little of that.

[Checkers]

“Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain.”

That’s a guess.

[OnRiver]

You are such a keyboard warrior....

[dmzTahoe]

Even if it doesn’t work out that way and Obama’s as much of a disaster as I expect him to be, I’d rather see a Democratic disaster for four years, and I’d rather see the rest of the GOP learn the lesson to never nominate this kind of moron again.

In retrospect, the conservative movement would be light years ahead had Gore won in 2000 (it also would have buried the global warming movement. A real conservative would have won in 2004, not GWB.

Also, had Kerry won in 2004, the dems would be very weak this election cycle, McCain would have crossed the aisle where he belongs, Hillary and Obama would be history and we would have a strong conservative this cycle.

It has to get worse before it gets better. Someday, hopefully soon, enough people will get fed up and rise up to do something. And it won’t take a majority to do this (remember the Revolutionary War patriots). Let it be the Dems who make it worse, not a RINO like McCain. McCain’s election will give repubs/conservatism another hurdle to jump and will delay the inevitable.

Our only hope now is to pray all scandals involving McCain are true and are brought to light before the convention. He will self-destruct and the repubs will nominate a true conservative.

[FreeReign]

Has he given the No Amnesty, Deport Pledge yet?

He almost did.

CPAC | McCain | Excerpt:And while I and other Republican supporters of the bill were genuine in our intention to restore control of our borders, we failed, for various and understandable reasons, to convince Americans that we were. I accept that, and have pledged that it would be among my highest priorities to secure our borders first, and only after we achieved widespread consensus that our borders are secure, would we address other aspects of the problem in a way that defends the rule of law and does not encourage another wave of illegal immigration.

.

It sounds to me that McCain still hasn't made a specific connection between amnesty and how it would encourage another wave of illegal immigration. He's getting closer, though.

[JasonC]

On the country, votes are for politics, conservatism is mostly for all of life, and emphatically is not defined by politics entire, let alone by voting. Conservatives defined conservatism by how they act, live, think, and breath, in their families, their jobs, in society and organizations of every kind, most of them not political at all, in faith, in intellectual argument and technocratic policy recommendation - and only late in the day in politics. Frankly it is the left that makes everything about politics, and conservatives are driven to political action largely to stop them from making politics too important and having it invade everything. Conservatism is all about life being bigger than politics.

[MNJohnnie]

Your ignorant, emotion based hysteria does your candidate far more harm then good.

Democrat campaign activists could not be more effective against McCain then his own supporters are with their arrogant, completely ignorant, overly emotional hysterics at anyone who refuses to bow down and worship at the McCain Cult of Personality shrine.

[seekthetruth]

“Some people think that we might be better off sinking McCain and at the same time send a message that candidates of his ilk need not apply in the future.”

There will always be candidates of McCain’s ilk running for President in the future. I still rather have McCain whom I don’t like as President for four years than Obama or Hillary for one day. As far as “sending a message” by sinking McCAin is conserned, that will do nothing but send Obama or Hillary to the White House. I rather hold my nose and vote for McCain in November.

[JillValentine]

I don’t think having RINO McCain as President will cause all future Republican presidents to be RINOs. Ford was a RINO and the next GOP president after him was Reagan.

Still, I’m not sure if there’s enough difference between McCain and Hillary to make it worth it to vote for McCain. I do believe that there is enough difference between McCain and Obama to make it worth it to vote for McCain. McCain’s loyalty is to McCain. Hillary’s loyalty is to Hillary. Obama’s loyalty is to any anti-American dictator he can find.

Two things have come up recently in McCain’s favor - his vote in favor of waterboarding and the fact that the New York Times hates him. However, I can never like or even really respect McCain, and if he does get my vote it will not be for him, but against Obama.

[IllumiNaughtyByNature]

That makes sense. The problem is that we have not seen it in his past, which is the only indicator of his future.

Therein lies the toughest question to answer.

[donna]

Then why do you want conservative votes?

[nyconse]

If we matter so little than why are we called names...my husband actually got banned on a thread last week where he spoke out against McCain. He dared to say the Obama is a very good candidate (leftist of course) and McCain will not beat him. No, we can only hope that McCain will not be the candidate-I bet the times has 30 years of dirt on McCain. Not to mention Hillary did look at the FBI files of congress.

[JasonC]

I already know what you think, and I do not care because you are impotent. You couldn't get Thompson into double digits. I liked Thompson, I would have voted for him, but you-all didn't, because you suck at politics. No big deal, there are other things in life. You might consider knitting.

[JustaDumbBlonde]