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Physicists Allay Fears of the End of the World
Spiegel ONLINE ^ | 8-06-08 | Charles Hawley

Posted on 08/07/2008 7:51:29 PM PDT by 444Flyer

The video looks a bit like a scene from a low-budget sci-fi horror film. A tiny hole slowly begins sucking in bits of the Earth in Switzerland with mountains, lakes and cities quickly falling into the growing gap. And it just keeps on growing--and growing. By the end of the 38 second movie, the entire planet has been swallowed up -- and all that's left is a shimmering ring in the inky blackness of outer space.

Absurd, perhaps. But a brief look around Internet blogs, and especially YouTube, makes it clear that there are a number of people out there who believe it is a very real possibility. The gigantic particle accelerator just now being completed outside Geneva at the European Organization for Nuclear Research--known as CERN--is set to be switched on soon. And some are concerned that, once the research facility begins bashing subatomic particles together at 99.999991 percent of the speed of light, dangerous black holes could be created and spread out of control.

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cern; particleaccelerator; stringtheory; theendisnigh; weredoomed
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Dude, where's my planet?...
1 posted on 08/07/2008 7:56:02 PM PDT by 444Flyer
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To: All

Here’s the video the article mentions from Youtube:

“The CERN black hole”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXzugu39pKM


2 posted on 08/07/2008 7:59:37 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: 444Flyer
It, like, inside the event horizon.... oops.

/johnny

3 posted on 08/07/2008 7:59:48 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Bless us all, each, and every one.)
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To: 444Flyer

So , uh, are the OSU Buckeyes number one?


4 posted on 08/07/2008 8:00:19 PM PDT by Radl
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To: 444Flyer
dangerous black holes

You know you can't say that anymore, its racist.,sarc.

5 posted on 08/07/2008 8:00:24 PM PDT by Orange1998
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To: 444Flyer

It’s all fun and games till someone loses their planet.

In all seriousness though, the people who’re afraid of this thing need to read a handful of verses from the Bible and chill. All is well. Sit back and enjoy the whizbang scientific discoveries.


6 posted on 08/07/2008 8:00:43 PM PDT by TheZMan (Bitter backwoods east Texan Christian gun clinger with the AC at 72 degrees.)
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To: 444Flyer

The final segment from a BBC TV movie “End Day”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1vKisefsuI


7 posted on 08/07/2008 8:01:26 PM PDT by LibFreeOrDie
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To: 444Flyer
Shine a light in a mirror and you're smashing subatomic particle waves at 2x the speed of light. Not a big deal.

Now if they actually break the straight line speed limit with anything of mass?????

8 posted on 08/07/2008 8:02:16 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist (I will stand with the Muslims ~B Hussein Obomber Verito Possumus~Verified Sleeper!)
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To: 444Flyer

I’m picturing a physicist saying, “Hold mein lager, und vatch this ...”


9 posted on 08/07/2008 8:02:27 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Et si omnes ego non)
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To: TheZMan

Agreed. God laughs at man’s folly. I think this is going to be a big non-event..but it is great movie material.


10 posted on 08/07/2008 8:04:49 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: 444Flyer

“Blowed up REAL good!”

11 posted on 08/07/2008 8:05:52 PM PDT by dighton
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To: ClearCase_guy

I don’t care who you are … that’s funny! ROFLMAO! Thanks, I needed that. ;-)


12 posted on 08/07/2008 8:07:00 PM PDT by doc1019 (I was taught to respect my elders, but it's getting harder to find one.)
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To: 444Flyer
The world will end, this I know
for Art Bell told me so.
13 posted on 08/07/2008 8:07:28 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Whale oil: the renewable biofuel for the 21st century.)
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To: 444Flyer

Ray warned us about this in Ghostbusters when he said not to cross the streams.


14 posted on 08/07/2008 8:07:52 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: 444Flyer

The moon missions provided physical evidence as to the age of the earth ... about 4,500,000,000 years old ... and still ticking.


15 posted on 08/07/2008 8:11:32 PM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: dighton

ROTFL!! Big Jim and Billy would know.


16 posted on 08/07/2008 8:12:14 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: miliantnutcase

It depends on what the “consensus” is before I’ll believe it or not.


17 posted on 08/07/2008 8:14:21 PM PDT by rdax
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To: 444Flyer

I don’t know... sounds like the Obama campaign to me.

And no, that’s not a racist statement.


18 posted on 08/07/2008 8:14:41 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com)
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To: 444Flyer
This thing has already had one mishap where it lost one of the mirrors, otherwise this thing would be online now.
19 posted on 08/07/2008 8:15:14 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom)
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To: KarlInOhio

...but not until 12/21/12.


20 posted on 08/07/2008 8:15:35 PM PDT by null and void (Barack Obama - International Man of Mystery...)
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To: All

Here is an apparent training video of what to do in the occurence of a black hole. First off, nobody panic..secondly, find some really bad actors and make a B Flick.

The Black Hole (1979)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb1r0mobgsM


21 posted on 08/07/2008 8:16:46 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: 444Flyer

Wht f t mks r vwls dsspr?


22 posted on 08/07/2008 8:23:00 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: 444Flyer

btt


23 posted on 08/07/2008 8:23:17 PM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: 444Flyer

Good. I won’t need to paint the hallway after all.


24 posted on 08/07/2008 8:23:56 PM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: 444Flyer
It began as a singularity, a tiny spot of darkness that seemed to pulse as it expanded, swallowing everything that was light, killing as it ate, absorbing, growing, sucking the very life out of the world around it, the screams of the living mingled with the groans of the dying as buildings, trees, the hills and the rivers and the ocean itself was crushed into a vortex of spinning madness, spiralling into the depths of nothingness from which there is no escape.

But enough about the Mariners season. What was this thread about again?

25 posted on 08/07/2008 8:24:15 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill

Dang, you had me skeered... sounded like you were talking about Nancy Pelosi.


26 posted on 08/07/2008 8:25:55 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com)
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To: 444Flyer

They already almost blew the thing to hell and gone.

I’ve read reviews, but don’t ask me to find them now, of a few engineering-scientist types who say they basically have very little faith in the design.
Sounds like it will create a hole in the Alps way before it ever makes a black hole. A BIG hole in the Alps!


27 posted on 08/07/2008 8:28:30 PM PDT by djf (Get ready! Buy Cheez Wiz! It goes with anything!)
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To: djf

Most likely there is going to be a multi-billion dollar Geraldo moment when they turn it on.


28 posted on 08/07/2008 8:33:53 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: djf
"The hills are alive with the sound of...uh oh!


29 posted on 08/07/2008 8:37:15 PM PDT by LibFreeOrDie
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To: 444Flyer

Black holes really suck.
Reminds me of a 50s Sci-Fi flick titled “The Magnetic Monster”.


30 posted on 08/07/2008 8:38:45 PM PDT by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: 444Flyer

Guess it’s not like some old dame lying in bed who claps her hands and CERN starts.

There are so many different parts and coils and places and secret tunnels, it takes like a month to actually start it.

Not to mention it can’t run unless it’s somewhere around the temperature of the dark side of Pluto.


31 posted on 08/07/2008 8:48:42 PM PDT by djf (Get ready! Buy Cheez Wiz! It goes with anything!)
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To: LibFreeOrDie

Lol!

Maybe they deserve it.
I HATE THAT MOVIE!!!!


32 posted on 08/07/2008 8:51:16 PM PDT by djf (Get ready! Buy Cheez Wiz! It goes with anything!)
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To: Grizzled Bear

A big vowel movement...


33 posted on 08/07/2008 9:01:21 PM PDT by null and void (Barack Obama - International Man of Mystery...)
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To: OldNavyVet
The moon missions provided physical evidence as to the age of the earth ... about 4,500,000,000 years old ... and still ticking.

Must have missed that one. What evidence?

34 posted on 08/07/2008 9:03:00 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Grizzled Bear

Your keyboard went south.


35 posted on 08/07/2008 9:07:59 PM PDT by calex59
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To: djf

“Guess it’s not like some old dame lying in bed who claps her hands and CERN starts.

There are so many different parts and coils and places and secret tunnels, it takes like a month to actually start it.

Not to mention it can’t run unless it’s somewhere around the temperature of the dark side of Pluto.”

I don’t trust any machine you can’t just kick to get started if there’s a glitch.


36 posted on 08/07/2008 9:17:02 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Marriage=1 man+1 woman! Vote "YES" on Prop 8, amend the Calif. State Constitution this November.)
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To: rawcatslyentist
Shine a light in a mirror and you're smashing subatomic particle waves at 2x the speed of light.

Wrong.

L

37 posted on 08/07/2008 9:21:32 PM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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a sample of earlier, related articles:

Lawsuit: Huge Atom Smasher Could Destroy World
(French/Swiss Hadron Collider)
Fox News | 3-28-08 | Paul Wagenseil
Posted on 03/28/2008 11:52:07 AM PDT by springtime4hillary
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1993231/posts

Asking a Judge to Save the World (from the Large Hadron Collider)
New York Times | 3-29-08 | Dennis Overbye
Posted on 03/29/2008 10:57:09 PM PDT by atomic conspiracy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1993903/posts

CERN to Morons: Large Hadron Collider Won’t Destroy Earth. Morons.
Gizmodo | 3/31/08
Posted on 04/03/2008 12:56:00 AM PDT by LibWhacker
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1995923/posts

Tech giants use controversial project as test bed
(Hadron Collider threatens the earth says Suit)
MarketWatch | June 12, 2008 7:03 p.m. EDT | John Letzing, MarketWatch
Posted on 06/13/2008 12:01:07 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2030707/posts

Lawsuit stirs fear of ‘strangelets’ destroying the Earth
Market Watch | June 12, 2008 | John Letzing
Posted on 07/01/2008 9:35:45 AM PDT by glymers
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2039237/posts

-and-

Big Bang at the atomic lab after scientists get their maths wrong
Times Online | 4/8/07 | Jonathan Leake
Posted on 04/08/2007 8:55:49 AM PDT by LibWhacker
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1814013/posts

Particle collider magnet self-destructs
AP on Yahoo | 4/3/07 | Alexander G. Higgins - ap
Posted on 04/03/2007 9:35:12 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1811659/posts

New particle accelerator could rule out string theory [ Large Hadron Collider ]
New Scientist | February 1, 2007 | David Shiga
Posted on 02/03/2007 1:18:18 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1778727/posts

Physicists Say Can Find No Sign of ‘God Particle’
Reuters / Yahoo | December 5, 2001
Posted on 12/06/2001 4:46:03 AM PST by Darth Reagan
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/584881/posts


38 posted on 08/07/2008 9:37:22 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: AdmSmith; bvw; callisto; ckilmer; dandelion; ganeshpuri89; gobucks; KevinDavis; Las Vegas Dave; ...
See, the String Theory list lives. Not a lot goin' on *in* string theory, but the LHC is either going to give it some rescue breathing, or nail the lid shut and bulldoze the grave shut.

39 posted on 08/07/2008 9:39:38 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv

Thanks for the ping. They were, uh...argh! 0./?%#yuurrpp.


40 posted on 08/07/2008 9:53:38 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: 444Flyer

It’s the .000009 percent you gotta watch out for.


41 posted on 08/07/2008 9:59:56 PM PDT by kinghorse (If we were electing a Sunday Paper Macy's male underwear model, the choice would be clear.)
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To: OldNavyVet
“The moon missions provided physical evidence as to the age of the earth ... about 4,500,000,000 years old ... and still ticking.”

Well, yea. But we didn't have one of those giant superkablooie smasher things until now. The planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter got one of those superkablooie smasher things and look what happened to those guys.

The Europeans should stick to being snotty to American tourists and inventing large bureaucratic organizations that don't do anything but we get to chip in American tax money for.

42 posted on 08/07/2008 11:06:09 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: 444Flyer

True story-during the test of the first atomic bomb some physicists actually believed that once the bomb was ignited the chain reaction would consume the world
Forget where I heard that one


43 posted on 08/08/2008 12:37:56 AM PDT by Larry381 (If the other guy has a knife-Obama brings........a basketball and a tire gauge?)
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To: Radl

LOL. Don’t bother me about the end of the world - will the Red Sox still win the World Series??!!?


44 posted on 08/08/2008 4:57:05 AM PDT by Enchante (If oil was botox then Nancy Pelosi would have us drilling everywhere!!! (hat tip, STARWISE))
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To: Larry381
"some physicists actually believed"

Not sure any physicists "actually believed" that -- a few discussed it as a remote theoretical possibility IIRC, but I've never seen it documented that any truly 'believed' it.

45 posted on 08/08/2008 4:58:53 AM PDT by Enchante (If oil was botox then Nancy Pelosi would have us drilling everywhere!!! (hat tip, STARWISE))
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To: Enchante
will the Red Sox still win the World Series??!!?

Yea, about the same time the world ends..........or hell freezes over......or the Lions win a Super Bowl. Whichever comes first......LOL!

46 posted on 08/08/2008 5:10:23 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco
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To: dighton; martin_fierro; aculeus
By the end of the 38 second movie, the entire planet has been swallowed up

Kind of like Megamaid, only different.


47 posted on 08/08/2008 5:25:55 AM PDT by Ezekiel (Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.)
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To: LiteKeeper
Must have missed that one. What evidence?

My source is on page 195 of "Darwin's Ghost" (subtitled "The Origin of the Species, updated") by Steve Jones.

There, in a chapter titled "On the imperfection of the Geological Record," Jones writes:

"We live not a hundred million but four thousand five hundred million years since the Earth was spun from dust and rock around the sun. The evidence comes not from our own planet, but from its satellite. The Moon flew off its parent after a giant impact. Because it stayed small, cold and undisturbed it gives a better picture of the past than does its parent. A quick trip by the Apollo XI mission was enough to date it. The Earth's turmoil makes it harder to trace its own origin. Its oldest rocks, found in Greenland and Western Australia, are just under four billion years old."

48 posted on 08/08/2008 7:03:45 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: LiteKeeper
Additional information about where the Moon came from is available at

http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/shadow/question38.html

From that source we have ...

“In the mid-1970s, scientists proposed the giant impact scenario for the formation of the Moon. The idea was that an off-center impact of a roughly Mars-sized body with a young Earth could provide Earth with its fast initial spin, and eject enough debris into orbit to form the Moon. If the ejected material came primarily from the mantles of the Earth and the impactor, the lack of a sizeable lunar core was easily understood, and the energy of the impact could account for the extra heating of lunar material required by analysis of lunar rock samples obtained by the Apollo astronauts."

In the above I've highlighted words about Earth's spin because page 231 in the before mentioned Steve Jones book (see Post 48) has in it this related statement:

"Even the days of the Earth have changed. As the moon saps its neighbor's rotational energy, the globe slows its spin. Corals have daily and annual rings of activity, and growth rings from four hundred million years ago show that there were then four hundred days a year."

49 posted on 08/10/2008 11:37:35 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet
Problems for 'giant impact' origin of moon

By Michael Oard

Evolutionary astronomers have great trouble accounting for the origin of the moon. There have generally been three competing hypotheses, but they all have serious physical problems:

1. Fission theory, invented by the astronomer George Darwin (son of Charles). He proposed that the earth spun so fast that a chunk broke off, with the Pacific Ocean as the probable scar (or a modification of the theory that had the earth molten at the time). But this theory is universally discarded today. First, the moon is too chemically different from the earth; second, the earth could never have spun fast enough to throw a moon into orbit; and third, the escaping moon would have been shattered while within the Roche Limit.

2. Capture theory — the moon was wandering through the solar system, and was captured by Earth’s gravity. But for one approaching body to enter into orbit around another, it would need to lose a lot of energy, which is why spacecraft sent to orbit other planets are designed with retro-rockets. Otherwise the approaching body would have been ‘slingshotted’ rather than captured, a phenomenon the Voyager probes exploited. Finally, even a successful capture would have resulted in an elongated comet-like orbit.

3. Condensation (or co-creation) theory — earth and moon formed at about the same time from the same portion of the swarm of planetesimals which supposedly orbited the sun in the early phases of the evolution of the solar system. However, it’s unlikely that the gravitational attraction could have been strong enough, and it doesn’t account for the moon’s low iron content.

The evolutionary astronomer Lissauer affirms that these three theories have insoluble problems.1 He even cited an only half-joking statement in a university astronomy class about 20 years ago by Irwin Shapiro: since there were no good (naturalistic) explanations, the best explanation is that the moon is an illusion! This counts as strong evidence for the moon’s special creation.2,3

Lissauer’s article was actually commenting on a paper4 supporting what evolutionary scientists consider a fourth promising hypothesis for the origin of the moon, developed during the past decade. It is called the Giant Impact Hypothesis. This hypothesis suggests that the proto-Earth and a Mars-sized protoplanet had a glancing collision 4.5 billion years ago. The moon subsequently formed from the ejecta. A variant of the hypothesis, the Impact-triggered Fission Hypothesis, propounds that, instead of one giant impactor, the moon formed from the debris of multiple impacts of smaller planetesimals. However, recent dynamical and geochemical analyses call the Giant Impact Hypothesis into question.

Computer models have been constructed to simulate such a giant impact. Although such computer models are simplified and depend too much on initial conditions, the results have strained the hypothesis to the breaking point. One of the new dynamical results is that the debris from the collision would rain back down onto Earth instead of remaining in orbit and forming the moon.5 To hurl the debris far enough from the earth, the impactor would need to be three times the size of Mars. The results of such a collision are hard to understand, much less model. And if the moon did form after such a collision, the orbit would likely be unstable with a distance of only 14,000 miles above the earth and circling it every two hours. Lissauer also noted the unsolved problem of losing the excess angular momentum.1

Planetary scientists are trying to work through all the dynamical problems to patch up this hypothesis by employing multiple computer simulations.6 Of course, multiple computer attempts with different initial conditions and physics are bound to come up with something plausible. But, some researchers are sceptical that such computer models are realistic:

‘However, Jay Melosh (University of Arizona) argued that we do not know the equations of state well enough to calculate the energy of such an impact and that we may have grossly underestimated them, to the point that specific dynamic models are currently unjustified.’ 7

In spite of a growing consensus in favor of the Giant Impact Hypothesis, some workers remain sceptical of the hypothesis on both dynamical and geochemical grounds.7

Ruzicka, Snyder and Taylor reviewed the geochemical data,8 especially the diagnostic elements of Ni, Co, Cr, V, and Mn. These elements have been used to argue in favor of the Giant Impact Hypothesis, but these researchers, after reviewing observed data from the moon and meteorites, conclude ‘... that there is no strong geochemical support for either the Giant Impact or Impact-triggered Fission hypotheses.’ 9 Much of the geochemical support for the hypothesis was based on genitive models, which of course are simplified with too few variables. It is the observed data that call these hypotheses into question. The researchers also add that the reason the Giant Impact Hypothesis has become popular lately is because other hypotheses don’t work:

‘This [hypothesis] has arisen not so much because of the merits of [its] theory as because of the apparent dynamical or geochemical short-comings of other theories ...’ 9

Planetary scientists won’t give up. They must have a naturalistic hypothesis for all origins, including the moon’s, so will believe almost any hypothesis to fill the void. In regard to the moon and despite a long history of theorizing, ‘The origin of the Moon is still unresolved.’ 9 The idea that the moon was specially created ex nihilo at its present distance and in its present orbit some 6,000 years ago is still the most reasonable explanation for its origin.

References

1. Lissauer, J.J., It’s not easy to make the moon, Nature 389(6649):353–357, 1997.
2. Whitcomb, J.C. and DeYoung, D.B., The Moon—Its Creation, Form and Significance, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1978.
3. Sarfati, J.D., The Moon: The light that rules the night, Creation 20(4):36–39, 1998.
4. Shigeru Ida et al., Lunar accretion from an impact generated disk, Nature 389(6649):353–357, 1997.
5. Anonymous, Recipe for a moon, Discover 18(11):25–26, 1997.
6. Halliday, A.N. and Drake, M.J., Colliding theories, Science 283:1861–1863, 1999.
7. Halliday and Drake, Ref. 3, p. 1862.
8. Ruzicka, A., Snyder, G.A. and Taylor, L.A., Giant Impact and Fission Hypotheses for the origin of the moon: a critical review of some geochemical evidence, International Geology Review 40:851–864, 1998.
9. Ruzicka et al., Ref. 5, p. 851.

50 posted on 08/10/2008 12:01:00 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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