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Mr. Putin’s mistake
The State ^ | Aug. 23, 2008 | VANYA EFTIMOVA BELLINGER

Posted on 08/23/2008 2:20:08 PM PDT by lizol

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1 posted on 08/23/2008 2:20:09 PM PDT by lizol
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To: voteNRA; valkyry1; Monkey Face; MajorChaos; rrstar96; Lorianne; ZULU; bayouranger; Grimmy; ...
Eastern European ping list


FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

2 posted on 08/23/2008 2:22:25 PM PDT by lizol
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To: lizol
GEORGIA CONFLICT 2008

Let's see...NATO and US Warships in the Black Sea (Russia views the Black Se as their own private swimming pool), Poland Signs missile shield agreement, Ukraine and Georgia assured membership in NATO, nations all over the world condemming the Russians, and the list will grow. This is what Putin and his ilk are reaping from their agression...and well they should.

3 posted on 08/23/2008 2:24:55 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: lizol

Wow. Good writer. Good article. Thanks for posting it.


4 posted on 08/23/2008 2:25:13 PM PDT by Glenn (Free Venezuela!)
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To: lizol

nice piece.


5 posted on 08/23/2008 2:32:20 PM PDT by ichabod1 (It's all fun and games until Russia starts invading Eastern Europe (pete))
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To: lizol
It is not military power that makes a country great but the investment in education, society, its people’s freedom, civil rights and wealth (as in West Germany after the WWII).

Of course, had the US not held a miltary shield over West Germany and the rest of Europe, it would have fallen long ago to the superior military power of the USSR.

The author is correct in her assertion, but unless you or somebody else has sufficient military power to protect the country, it won't last long.

6 posted on 08/23/2008 2:35:19 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (qui)
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To: lizol
I too have been thinking there might be some negative repercussions for the Russkies here. It is already apparent that the other former Soviet republics have hardened in opposition, and it has caused the European Union countries to view America's military presence there a little more favorably also.

The ability to withhold the sale of oil and natural gas is over-rated as a weapon. In order to harm your client, you have to refuse to sell it at all, to anyone, which means you are refusing revenues-not good.

I wonder if the author is related to Vasco and Ilian Evtimov, the brothers who played basketball for North Carolina and N. C. State, respectively.

7 posted on 08/23/2008 2:35:57 PM PDT by wayoverontheright
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To: lizol
Kalinka Malinka
8 posted on 08/23/2008 3:02:57 PM PDT by blam
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To: wayoverontheright
The ability to withhold the sale of oil and natural gas is over-rated as a weapon. In order to harm your client, you have to refuse to sell it at all, to anyone, which means you are refusing revenues-not good.

Exactly. It's fungible. If Russia sells to customers of Venezuela or Canada or whomever, then the oil/gas that would have gone to those customers is available on the market. Europe can buy it. It's not as convenient as having everything already set up, but it's doable.

Refusing to sell at all means Russia loses is major (practically only) income. They might as well cut their own throats... which is OK with me, but not so good for the Russian people.

Of course, Putin and the other KGB/mafiya/oligarch thugs have already gotten theirs and they don't care about the Russian people who should really consider regime change PDQ.

9 posted on 08/23/2008 3:03:00 PM PDT by Sal (Pyrrhic Pooty just took Russia down to a 3rd class, 3rd world POS country that is dying.)
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To: lizol

>>>The world is horrified by this new Russia.<<<

the new soviet of monopoly oil and gas.


10 posted on 08/23/2008 3:12:38 PM PDT by ken21 (people die and you never hear from them again.)
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To: lizol
Kalinka-Malinka-on youtube
11 posted on 08/23/2008 3:29:55 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th
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To: Sherman Logan
The author is correct in her assertion, but unless you or somebody else has sufficient military power to protect the country, it won't last long.

This is why the peaceniks will never be able to run a country without being a pawn of an aggressor.

Peace Through Strength is beyond their ability to understand.

12 posted on 08/23/2008 3:42:50 PM PDT by SteamShovel (Global Warming, the New Patriotism)
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To: lizol; Lasha; Sal; autumnraine; redstateconfidential; Army Air Corps
For me, the last few days illustrate that the Kremlin never learned the lesson about the end of the Soviet Union. It is not military power that makes a country great but the investment in education, society, its people’s freedom, civil rights and wealth (as in West Germany after the WWII). If a political regime built on naked power is very brutal, it can survive more than 70 years. But at the end it will fall, because it is hollow inside. People applaud military victories, but when they are sober on the next morning they value much more a normal life, wealth, foreign investors in their towns and the amenities of globalization such as free travel and free trade. That is the good news in these dark days.

Lizol, my friend, this is an incredibly wonderful writing and I thank you deeply for posting it. The author has tremendous insight and a gift with words.

13 posted on 08/23/2008 3:52:27 PM PDT by MarMema (Georgia has stood for freedom around the world -- now the world must stand for freedom in Georgia.)
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To: Jeff Head

I get a real uneasy feeling about how many nukes the Russkies kept. Did they cheat on the agreements in the 1990s? I recall working on a proposal for some logistic support for the nuke destruction. The Russkies were very paranoid and secretive. The book, “Soviet Strategy for Nuclear War” is in my library. The Russians always had a chess players attitude towards nuclear war. They thought that winning was a mathematical algorithm of strategy and numbers. I just hope Putin is not stupid as well as evil.


14 posted on 08/23/2008 3:53:43 PM PDT by darth
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To: SteamShovel

CI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM (He who wants peace, prepares for war)


15 posted on 08/23/2008 3:57:29 PM PDT by lizol
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To: SteamShovel

A good article but a great nation must be a balance of military power and economic power. Without the first they are hollow and will fall, without the other they become temping targets for conquest and loot. Vlad would be wise to invest in his infrastructure as well as his military.


16 posted on 08/23/2008 3:58:21 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Glenn

good writer, a little too personal on the details, but engaging and informative, and very well organized.


17 posted on 08/23/2008 4:42:33 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (when your bot, you're pwn3d)
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To: wayoverontheright; Sal
The ability to withhold the sale of oil and natural gas is over-rated as a weapon. In order to harm your client, you have to refuse to sell it at all, to anyone, which means you are refusing revenues-not good.

You guys are dead wrong.
Russia has cut of oil/energy exports in the dead of winter to East European nations - Ukraine & Belarus and others

Try floating your oil fungiblity theories over there during a winter cutoff

BTW --- Oil is more fungible than natural gas which is also a major Russian export
18 posted on 08/23/2008 5:46:23 PM PDT by dennisw (That Muhammad was a charlatan. Islam is a hoax, an imperialistic ideology, disguised as religion.)
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To: dennisw
If you'll notice I said it's not as convenient as what is already set up, and I know that they did cut off supplies to East European nations and it caused severe hardships.

How long did Russia withhold heating supplies? I'm asking in order to learn 2 things--how long was Russia willing to do without the income or did she sell elsewhere; and did the Eastern Europeans find a way around the problem after a while or have to tough it out for a whole winter?

Natural disasters also disrupt all kinds of supplies. We were without power for a week after an earthquake. Before you jump, I'm not equating the two. My point is that after that happened to us, we bought a generator, laid in specific supplies for a long siege...

I know that individual customers cannot contract for heating supplies apart from what is set up to come into the country, but governments can. Did they try it then? Have they set anything up now?

I'm not trying to challenge you on this, I really want to know because an individual family is pretty much screwed in such a situation, but the leadership of a country can take some action--in an unexpected emergency, the response will certainly not be immediate. OTOH they shouldn't be taken by surprise again.

I would hope some protective preparations have been taken--orders from non-Russian sources for a partial supply. A ship isn't the same as a pipe line and an already set up pipe line has to be supported by continued purchases. But partial shipments--maybe even held in storage for an emergency could make all the difference. If you have that ready, you could buy more while living off the partial till the new shipment comes in.

19 posted on 08/23/2008 6:35:06 PM PDT by Sal (Pyrrhic Pooty just took Russia down to a 3rd class, 3rd world POS country that is dying.)
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To: Sal
How long did Russia withhold heating supplies? I'm asking in order to learn 2 things--how long was Russia willing to do without the income

Russia is happy to do without the income in order to terrorize its coistomers. It figures such action lead to more income from obedient cutomers in the future

or did she sell elsewhere; 

A bit irrelevant since Russia has huge trade surplus whether that gas/oil was sold or not sold

and did the Eastern Europeans find a way around the problem after a while or have to tough it out for a whole winter?

Was not the whole winter. Was to my memory 10-25 days
Russia has the upper hand in such situations where oil and gas are not as fungible as you theorize

20 posted on 08/23/2008 6:57:26 PM PDT by dennisw (That Muhammad was a charlatan. Islam is a hoax, an imperialistic ideology, disguised as religion.)
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