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THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND PELOSI
The Oregonian ^ | August 28, 2008 | David Reinhard

Posted on 08/28/2008 12:48:04 PM PDT by jazusamo

Amid the cascade of words pouring out of Denver this week, none may have more long-term punch than the bubbly Mile High musings of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Sunday's "Meet the Press." Tom Brokaw had asked about Barack Obama saying that deciding when life begins was "above my pay grade." Pelosi showcased the Peter Principle in action. It says that people rise to the level of their incompetence. Her answer showed that the principle has nothing to do with Saint Peter.

"I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. . . . We don't know. . . . And so I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins."

How bad was it? Her pontifications left Brokaw as dumbstruck as a host can appear at such times. He noted her church believes life begins at conception. "I understand," she said. "And this is, like, maybe 50 years or something like that. So again, over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy. But it is . . . also true that God has given us . . . a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions."

How bad was it? Catholic leaders in Washington, D.C., New York and Denver sternly corrected her valley girl pronouncement. Like, maybe 50 years or something like that . . . free will -- yeah, whatever.

It's one thing for a politico to bring up the teachings of her church on an issue. Sometimes it's a risky thing in a nation built on the separation of church and state; sometimes it's an altogether legitimate thing. But it's another thing for someone to call herself an ardent, practicing Catholic and then make a holy hash of her church's teaching on abortion.

"Ardent, practicing Catholics will quickly learn from the historical record that from apostolic times, the Christian tradition overwhelmingly held that abortion was grievously evil," Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput stated. "Some of the Early Fathers held that abortion was homicide; others that it was tantamount to homicide; and various scholars theorized about when and how the unborn child might be animated or 'ensouled.' But none diminished the unique evil of abortion as an attack on life itself . . . ."

He continued: "It is always gravely evil, and so are the evasions employed to justify it. Catholics who make excuses for it -- whether they're famous or not -- fool only themselves and abuse the fidelity of those Catholics who do sincerely seek to follow the Gospel and live their Catholic faith."

It hardly requires a prelate's instruction for Catholics to learn what the church actually teaches. It's right in the Catholic Church's catechism: "Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception . . . . Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable."

Pelosi must have been on a Rocky Mountain high Sunday. She was operating way above her pay grade.

There's a term for Roman Catholics who pick and choose what non-negotiable church teachings to follow: "Cafeteria Catholics." The modern Democratic Party presents a special temptation for Catholic politicians and voters alike, since the right to an abortion has become the party's holy grail. The result is lots of rationalizing or a willful ignorance of their church's position. But Pelosi has hurled herself into a whole new realm. She combined lame rationalization of her own position with an ignorance of the church's position that, sadly, didn't seem willful.

This teachable moment for the Catholic Church couldn't come at a worse moment for Democrats. As they reach out to working-class Catholics, Pelosi's remarks highlight the party's abortion problem. Its support for unchecked abortion -- and a presidential candidate more radical than abortion-rights groups -- doesn't make this easy. Case in point: Before Pelosi prompted Chaput's rejoinder, the Denver archbishop had said that Sen. Joe Biden should avoid taking communion because of the Catholic vice presidential pick's pro-choice stand on abortion.

Unlike Catholic teaching on capital punishment or papal statements on the Iraq war, you see, the church's ancient position on abortion isn't something Catholics are free to ignore. Even ardent, practicing Catholics. Their only choice: Practice more.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 110th; abortion; catholic; catholicpoliticians; pelosi; reinhard

1 posted on 08/28/2008 12:48:04 PM PDT by jazusamo
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To: Salvation

Reinhard on Pelosi and abortion.


2 posted on 08/28/2008 12:49:07 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: jazusamo
"I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic . . . "

No one who actually is an ardent, practicing Catholic would ever describe themselves as an ardent, practicing Catholic.

3 posted on 08/28/2008 12:51:01 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: jazusamo

Holy frigging crap.

This woman is “mercifully unscathed by the ravages of intelligence”. (to quote an obscure movie).


4 posted on 08/28/2008 12:54:42 PM PDT by Egon (The difference between Theory and Practice: In Theory, there is no difference.)
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To: jazusamo
"I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic

I wonder how she practices. Certainly not with the fundamental tenets of Catholicism.

5 posted on 08/28/2008 12:59:08 PM PDT by stevem
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To: jazusamo

Pope Pelosi


6 posted on 08/28/2008 1:00:55 PM PDT by griswold3 (Al qaeda is guilty of hirabah (war against society) Penalty is death.)
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To: jazusamo

The woman simply cannot help herself. Please, oh please Nan, keeping on running your mouth.


7 posted on 08/28/2008 1:02:41 PM PDT by technically right
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To: jazusamo

When you examine the pedigree of their ideas, what you come to understand is that the abortion issue is one of the keystones to devaluing human life. This is something that is implicit in the ideology of the Left; it’s cast into their philosophical DNA.

Humans are things.

That the essence of it. Humans are fungible and ultimately disposable “assets”.

This is why you’ve got the likes of Margaret Sanger and Dr. Peter Singer doing their damndest to move the goalposts when it comes to defining life and humanity. Singer, for example, has argued that infants up to 28 months old don’t really have any cognitive ability that defines them as human. So it’s OK to ‘terminate’ them if the parent (or really, the State) so chooses.

Who lives, who dies. That’s the power they seek. They are all monsters, monsters from the deepest dark heart of of our existence and history is replete with the outcomes and the evidence of their sick Utopian ideas: slaughter and mass murder on a scale that beggars the imagination.

History also tells us what we must do to deal with them.


8 posted on 08/28/2008 1:13:29 PM PDT by Noumenon (Time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun)
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To: Egon
Curious that La Pelosi categorically rejects Augustine's morals, but expects us to adopt his necessarily primitive 4th century AD speculations on embryonic anatomy.

It's like some chop-shop abortionist trashing the Hippocratic Oath, but still going to Hippocrates for an explanation of molecular biology.

9 posted on 08/28/2008 1:18:51 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("I have a mustard seed, and I'm not afraid to use it." ---attributed to Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: jazusamo

She can always hook up with the ECUSA Episcopals. They might even make her a bishop?


10 posted on 08/28/2008 1:23:10 PM PDT by showme_the_Glory (ILLEGAL: prohibited by law. ALIEN: Owing political allegiance to another country or government)
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To: jazusamo
Too many vodka chasers washing down those Rocky Mountain Oysters maybe.

Join the LIVE THREAD discussion:

Obamapalooza: LIVE THREAD (Greek Temple coronation concert)

11 posted on 08/28/2008 1:23:23 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Noumenon
Well put!

Long time no "see"!!!
12 posted on 08/28/2008 1:24:18 PM PDT by AKA Elena (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you!)
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To: jazusamo

Pelosi was born in 1940. She really wants people to believe that the church did not decide that human life begins at conception until she was 17 or 18 years old?


13 posted on 08/28/2008 1:38:34 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: jazusamo
Apparently there are Catholics, cafeteria Catholics and then there are the SanFran Catholics. She may have riled up a few of the Church leaders enough to write rebukes and it is good to see them correct her. But, it will be more interesting to see if the Church cares whether or not one of their more famous members can spout her nonsense such as she has and be allowed to remain among the practicing faithful.

The statements issued from her spokespeople (why doesn't she do it herself?) are not humble acknowledgments of her errors and her acceptance of the Church's teachings, but more of a prideful stance that she is right and it is the Church who is mistaken. I know several very liberal Catholics who feel their sole (or lack of soul) mission is to change the Church and make it more "mainstream" and less dogmatic. Little ol' Nan appears to be another one. I mean, like, the church is cool until they try to tell us what is right and wrong or like, tell us how we should live...duh.

14 posted on 08/28/2008 1:38:38 PM PDT by GBA
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To: GBA
...more of a prideful stance that she is right...

Pride is the original sin of Lucifer.

15 posted on 08/28/2008 1:47:25 PM PDT by eccentric (a.k.a. baldwidow)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Pelosi was born in 1940. She really wants people to believe that the church did not decide that human life begins at conception until she was 17 or 18 years old?

It's really simple. She is a lying sack of excrement.

16 posted on 08/28/2008 1:56:51 PM PDT by Stentor
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To: Noumenon
Humans are things.

That the essence of it. Humans are fungible and ultimately disposable “assets”.

One change I've noticed, is many corporations have a "Human Resources" department -- reducing people to mere resources which are used by the corporation. Seems like some time ago, at least in my experience, it used to be referred to as the "Personnel Department".

If I was running a business, I'd use the older term. Language is a powerful tool (as we know from the PC crap out there) and I would start by refusing to consider humanity as a resource. At least "personnel" acknowledges the person.

17 posted on 08/28/2008 2:20:16 PM PDT by Crolis (Married since June 7, 2008!)
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To: jazusamo
THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND PELOSI

Love the title.

18 posted on 08/28/2008 2:57:30 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (when you're bot, you're pwn3d)
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To: Crolis
One change I've noticed, is many corporations have a "Human Resources" department -- reducing people to mere resources which are used by the corporation. Seems like some time ago, at least in my experience, it used to be referred to as the "Personnel Department". If I was running a business, I'd use the older term. Language is a powerful tool (as we know from the PC crap out there) and I would start by refusing to consider humanity as a resource. At least "personnel" acknowledges the person.

Word! "Change the culture by changing the language," and all that.

A little reading I did on Marxism a few years ago laid a strategy for getting a world-view "installed."

The strategy was an irreligious a copy of the church, with "priests" -- gurus, that is; prophets (profesors); a mandate for "evangelism," etc. It was actually an older piece, if I recall.

FWIW.

19 posted on 08/28/2008 3:01:18 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (when you're bot, you're pwn3d)
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To: jazusamo

She also, went onto say that a woman’s right to choose trumped church doctrine. That’s a little element that most reports leave out, yet it is one of the keys. She was basically saying that womens’ doctrine is the most important. And she has the gall to call herself a “ardent, practicing Catholic”. Yeah right, Nan. Proves that Hillary isn’t the only one with a pair.


20 posted on 08/28/2008 3:04:07 PM PDT by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: Stentor
It's really simple. She is a lying sack of excrement. A big sack! Did you see her aiding and abetting the Hildabeast last night? Wonder what deal they did with the Devil....
21 posted on 08/28/2008 3:09:15 PM PDT by oneamericanvoice (Support freedom! Support the troops! Surrender is not an option!)
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To: technically right

It would be great if she keeps running her mouth right up to the election, she might just might talk herself out of the Speakers job.


22 posted on 08/28/2008 3:16:35 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: jazusamo
But it is . . . also true that God has given us . . . a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions."

There's an old saying down in my neck of the woods that goes "even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then", and for once Pelosi is absolutely right. God did give us a free will, and He holds us responsible for how we use that freedom.

But it's also true that America will pay a terrible price for using the free will that God gave us to allow hired killers, aka abortion providers, to murder innocent human beings whether in the womb or after they're born. Both Pelosi and Obama want to allow unwanted babies to be killed even when the hired killers fail to kill them in the womb and they're born alive, anyone want to make a guess on how God feels about that?

23 posted on 08/28/2008 3:17:07 PM PDT by epow (Choose ye this day whom you will serve.......but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.)
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To: Noumenon

Monsters is a good description of them and it’s evident that Pelosi and those like her in the Dem party are willing to accept those monsters for political gain, in so doing it makes them monsters also.


24 posted on 08/28/2008 3:21:01 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well said, Mrs. D. I believe it’s the ultimate in cherry picking.


25 posted on 08/28/2008 3:23:52 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: GBA

I read where a Cardinal and two Archbishops have spoken out against Pelosi but Archbishop Niederauer, her Archbishop, hasn’t spoken out against her because he hasn’t sat down with her and spoken to her face to face.

I wonder how many of the others have had a sit down with her?


26 posted on 08/28/2008 3:32:58 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: oneamericanvoice
She also, went onto say that a woman’s right to choose trumped church doctrine.

Yes, and if she and those women truly believe that they have no place in the Catholic church, IMO.

27 posted on 08/28/2008 3:37:33 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: jazusamo

As Peggy Noonan put it in an essay by the same name, they are all “In Love with Death”.


28 posted on 08/28/2008 3:39:21 PM PDT by Noumenon (Time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun)
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To: AKA Elena

Hello back atcha. Looks like we’re bot h’old-timers’ here. Been busy. Now, not so much. Looking to get busy again...


29 posted on 08/28/2008 3:41:01 PM PDT by Noumenon (Time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun)
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To: epow
anyone want to make a guess on how God feels about that?

I know you and I don't have to guess!

30 posted on 08/28/2008 3:41:07 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: jazusamo

Wonderful headline!


31 posted on 08/28/2008 3:42:20 PM PDT by fanfan (SCC:Canadians have constitutional protection to all opinions, as long as they are based on the facts)
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To: jazusamo

I got kicked out of the Catholic church for being pregnant at 16. I did not have an abortion, like a lot of the other girls in the parish who got pregnant did.

And the Catholic church gives Nancy Pelosi a pass?


32 posted on 08/28/2008 3:57:55 PM PDT by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I don’t know if anyone has posted it, since FR tends to eat our “old friends” lately, But Fox News reported on the pro life demonstration in Denver AND Neil Cavuto had Apb Chaput on on one segment today. In the interest of being straightforward, Neil did state that he was a Catholic himself. The Archbishop restated Catholic teaching and spoke both of Pelosi and Biden in this particular instance of mortal sin and self-delusion in both cases in their support of abortion.


33 posted on 08/28/2008 4:29:36 PM PDT by AKA Elena (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you!)
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To: ViLaLuz
"I got kicked out of the Catholic church for being pregnant at 16. I did not have an abortion, like a lot of the other girls in the parish who got pregnant did."

It is not canonically possible for a person of any age or condition to be "kicked out of the church" for being pregnant. If somebody TOLD you you were being kicked out of the Church, they were lying to you.

I am very serious about this. Anyone saying you were excluded from the Church was violating your Baptismal rights as a Catholic, pronouncing an erroneous judgment in terms of canon Law, and and gravely sinning against justice and charity.

How long ago did this happen to you? Who did this to you? Did you not question this? Please consider this sincerely and answer this: you have been cruelly and seriously misled.

34 posted on 08/28/2008 6:09:05 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: jazusamo

**There’s a term for Roman Catholics who pick and choose what non-negotiable church teachings to follow: “Cafeteria Catholics.” **

Mzzz. Nancy, the Cafeteria is closed!


35 posted on 08/28/2008 6:24:28 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Egon; jazusamo

In the Oregonian! Wow!


36 posted on 08/28/2008 6:25:17 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ViLaLuz; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

I got kicked out of the Catholic church for being pregnant at 16.
You got lied to. Our Lord loves you and your child. Whatever fool lied to you did you a grave harm. Come home, please.
37 posted on 08/28/2008 7:05:46 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“It is not canonically possible for a person of any age or condition to be “kicked out of the church” for being pregnant. If somebody TOLD you you were being kicked out of the Church, they were lying to you.

I am very serious about this. Anyone saying you were excluded from the Church was violating your Baptismal rights as a Catholic, pronouncing an erroneous judgment in terms of canon Law, and and gravely sinning against justice and charity.

How long ago did this happen to you? Who did this to you? Did you not question this? Please consider this sincerely and answer this: you have been cruelly and seriously misled.”

Thank you for your concern, I mean that. I’m not surprised I was lied to. It wasn’t the only time I, or my family, was lied to by our local diocese. The first time was with the child molesting priest who no one would do anything about. I believe you when you say they were gravely sinning against justice. Our diocese was, and probably still is, rotten to the core.

The problems with a priest from a neighboring parish began in 1975 (molesting me and some other girls). I was kicked out in 1976 by the priest of our parish. I was also kicked out of catechism, in front of the whole class. A lot of people in our parish didn’t agree and said what he did was wrong.

Looking back I can see I was cruelly mislead. But you know what? I left and got saved in a Christian church.

All this hoopla going on with the Catholic church tolerating people like Pelosi and Biden and their idiotic comments is just more of the same corruption.

But I don’t think all dioceses are like the one I grew up in. My husband grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools and almost became a priest, and he’s horrified by my experience. Also, the same problems can be seen anywhere there are large religious organizations. I would just like to see the Catholic church stop tolerating such evil.


38 posted on 08/28/2008 7:10:27 PM PDT by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: Noumenon
Yowzaaaaaa, you nail it!
That the essence of it. Humans are fungible and ultimately disposable “assets”.
Bingo.
Who lives, who dies. That’s the power they seek.
Exactly.
They are all monsters, monsters from the deepest dark heart of of our existence and history is replete with the outcomes and the evidence of their sick Utopian ideas: slaughter and mass murder on a scale that beggars the imagination.
Undeniably true.
History also tells us what we must do to deal with them.
The hard to bear truth. Well said. Really well said.
39 posted on 08/28/2008 7:12:17 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: narses

“You got lied to. Our Lord loves you and your child. Whatever fool lied to you did you a grave harm. Come home, please. “

Thank you, I know the Lord loves me and my family. We love him, too. Yes, I was done great harm, but by God’s mercy and grace I survived. And the Lord used this tragic event to see me born again. I’m already home in the Body of Christ. Thank you for your concern.


40 posted on 08/28/2008 7:15:21 PM PDT by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: narses

If this evening’s speech is any indication, Mr. Obama is hell bent on speeding the Day of Reckoning. That’s fine. cBring it on.


41 posted on 08/28/2008 7:49:29 PM PDT by Noumenon (Time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun)
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To: narses

If this evening’s speech is any indication, Mr. Obama is hell bent on speeding the Day of Reckoning. That’s fine. cBring it on.


42 posted on 08/28/2008 7:50:09 PM PDT by Noumenon (Time for Atlas to shrug - and to pick up a gun)
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