Shelby discusses stimulus bill, other issues (Questions Obama's Citizenship* (Uh-Oh))

The Cullman Times ^ | February 21, 2009 | Patrick McCreless

[Kansas58]

Please apply some logic.
If you read the State Department form, you can clearly see that you can claim citizenship several different ways.
Obviously, the phrase, “If you claim citizenship by birth abroad” to either one U.S. Citizen parent or to two U.S. Citizen parents (It must be important, since the form asks the EXACT circumstances) -— well, that form indicates that:

YOU CAN CLAIM UNITED STATES CITIZENSHIP FROM THE MOMENT OF BIRTH EVEN IF YOU WERE NOT BORN ON U.S. SOIL!

Why is that so hard to understand? And, if you were a citizen from the moment of birth, that would seem to take care of the “Natural Born Citizen” requirement.

However, the State Department clearly understands that the laws in place, at the moment of birth, dictate citizenship status for those born abroad.

McCain is a Natural Born Citizen. McCain released ALL of his records and even had Congress investigate the matter on his behalf.

Obama, on the other hand, has tried his best to avoid this issue. Obama has refused to provide any useful, valid documentation.

[BP2]

Maybe it’s finally dawning on them that there are huge loopholes within the system; both state and federal.

Without going into all the issues over the document itself, yeah, there is are loopholes in the Hawaiian Statutes you can drive a Mack truck through about birth documentation. The CertificaTION of Live Birth did not exist until Nov 2001, designed as a way to allow a requester quicker access to verification of their birth.

“This copy serves as prima facia evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.” [HRS  338-13(b), 338-19]."

The way Hawaiian law is written -- you can be born on ANOTHER PLANET and if you have a single Hawaiian "parent" willing to claim you as their own, you can be granted a Hawaiian "birth certificate," become a US Citizen -- and by default, a NBC:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

What this all means is BHO could have been born in Japan on a shopping trip, at a home for runaways in Canada, or in Kenya on a visit to Obama Sr's old homestead and he could still get a document saying he was “born in the USA.”

As long as the birth mother (in this case) proved her Hawaiian residency and said "my child was born in Seattle, but by virtue of my state residency, I want the birth to show as Hawaii," -- POOF -- we now have a Hawaiian birth record for BHO.

I have read a lot on this whole issue and many point to the newspaper listing of his birth announcement.

Well, sorry folks -- that is a vanity listing submitted to the paper since only a few of those appear each day and they are dwarfed by the number of kids born in the islands.

Just like marriage news items are only a sample of all the marriages done. Furthermore, if it WAS used by Ann or her mother to acquire a Certificate of Late Birth or some other document, Hawaiian Rule 902(6) and others rules have provisions against "presumptive authenticity" of such a documents such as a newspaper clipping: Rule 902. Self-authentication. "Extrinsic evidence of authenticity as a condition precedent to admissibility is not required with respect to the following: ... (6) Newspapers and periodicals. Printed materials purporting to be newspapers or periodicals.

Local people interested in this issue in Hawaii have tried to find anybody who worked the hospitals back then in the delivery rooms to recall if such a birth was done.

The loophole in the law makes even the COLB a problem.

To fully find out what happened the state record will have to be opened to see if he was born in Hawaii and the court may have to demand that.

The COLB is built from source documents.

The doctor who attended the birth (or nurse who certifies from the delivery room or even a midwife in some cases) has to submit the paperwork to document the trail.

If he was born out of state and the COLB is by the mothers certification then that documentation would be in the record.

People have been trying every angle on this from talking to people who worked in the delivery rooms then to trying to access lists of who used the delivery rooms to even admission records or ambulance records to get to the hospital.

Right now nobody can find a shred to support the birth in either hospital of size there because partly of current privacy laws.

BHO in his books talks of a different form of the birth record because he relates of how it included his birth weight. The current COLB does not but 60s era COLBs issued then did include that data.

Trouble is if you request a copy today you only get the same info you see on the newer version and you will not for example see the birth weight given. And since you cannot be the witness at your own birth, you need a witness, preferably with an "attesting signature" to prove to the WORLD that you ARE who you say you are. There's none on the CertificaTION of Live Birth.

There is much more data in the source file at the state that the COLB is extracted from and that is the real data that needs to be looked at.

HOWEVER, after doing some research, I think the key to beating Hawaiian Statutes 338-13(b), 338-17.8, and 338-19 may be herein:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol13_Ch0601-0676/HRS0626/HRS_0626-0001-0901.htm and
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol13_Ch0601-0676/HRS0626/HRS_0626-0001-0902.htm and
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol13_Ch0601-0676/HRS0626/HRS_0626-0001-0903.htm

[Beckwith]

Click the thumbnail to see a large copy of this beautifully printed Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.

It belongs to Sun Yat-Sen, the Father of Modern China, who was born in China.

This Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, dated March 14, 1904, was issued after Dr. Sun signed a raggedy type-written statement affirming that he was born in Hawaii on Nov. 24, 1870.

Sun Yat-sen was born on November 12, 1866, to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province (26 km or 16 miles north of Macau), not Hawaii, as this document affirms.

[stockpirate]

ping

[erkyl]

While you guys were debating this, the Cullman Times posted this update regarding the statement made by Shelby:

"The Cullman Times article contains an incomplete account, and therefore a distortion, of Sen. Shelby's comments regarding President Obama's citizenship. At the town hall meeting in Cullman, Sen. Shelby laid out the Constitutional qualifications for the Presidency and said that, while he hasn't personally seen the President's birth certificate, he is confident that the matter has been thoroughly examined." See the article here.

Did somebody get to him?

[unspun]

Please consider emailing to friends, posting in blogs, forums, and social networks

Tonight:

ALAN KEYES is the special guest on "The Awakening w/ Hanen & Arlen," on The Sentinel Radio Network, 2/23 at 8pm ET,,,5pm PT

Why is Barack Obama not accountable to Americans and to the constitution? Alan Keyes is on the move, to get to the dregs and documentation on Obama (in)eligibility. Obama had his lawyer threaten him and Keyes does not flinch. In fact, he has just laid in on the line, calling Obama a communist and calling him out on his "presidency."

Hanen and Arlen will ask the pointed questions and let Dr. Keyes speak his mind. (Why would we stand in his way?)

Keyes will then be joined by Thomas Hoefling, also of America's Independent Party, and "The Awakening" panelists and callers.

As you listen, join our chat room at www.tsrn.us/chat.

If you cannot access online, you may call to listen, at 646-727-2652

[Non-Sequitur]

“You have to be born in America to be president.”

So he's ruling McCain out too?

[FlashBack]

There is certainly some excellent work going on in regards to this and I thank all of you carrying the load on this, I’ve been passing along the info to those that I know. I hope that in the end the Constitution will be upheld.

[Polarik]

I've also discussed the statutes before, but what has driven me BONKERS is that Hawaii's DOH produces what is called a "Letter of Verification." This Letter contains the same data fields as those on a COLB, and a verification request for Obama WOULD have been issued if someone had simply made the effort.

Now, There is a HUGE difference between requesting a certified copy of the vault birth certificate, a certified copy of a COLB, and an uncertified Letter of Verification. It's right there in the same Hawaii Statue 338 for everyone to read.

I have been telling people until I was blue in the face, to "REQUEST THE FREAKIN' LETTER OF VERIFICATION," but it just did not sink into anyone's brain, not Berg, not Taitz, not Donofrio, not Martin, not Corsi, not anyone.

When Directors Chiyome Fukino and Alan Onaka gave their little dog-and-pony show for the media on 10/31, saying that "Hawaii had Obama's original birth certificate," Fukino also said the MAGIC WORD that everybody totally missed.

Here are her comments as they appeared in the now-scrubbed article by Dan Nakaso of the Honolulu Advertiser:

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama's official birth certificate," Fukino said in the statement. "State law (Hawai'i Revised Statutes ¤338-18) prohibits the release of a

certified birth certificate

to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record..."

The Magic Word is CERTIFIED. Letters of Verification are NOT CERTIFIED, which is why someone other than Obama or a family member could have easily ordered one (like a social organization, or a business, or a school, or a publisher).

§338-18 Disclosure of records.

(b) The department shall not permit inspection of public health statistics records, or issue a CERTIFIED COPY of any such record or part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant has a direct and tangible interest in the record.

Although the person or group ordering the Letter of Verification still needs to have a "tangible interest," can there be anything more "tangible" than needing to validate Obama's claim that he was born in Hawaii to Stanley Dunham and Barack Obama Sr??

BUT....in reality (and to paraphrase the Bandito) "We don't need no stinking CERTIFICATION" to show that what Obama posted online does not contain the same birth information that would be shown in a Letter of Verification.

That is the whole point of requesting one.

Paragraph (b) above only applies the "tangible interest" criteria to the Letter of Verification. The list of people who can get a Letter, however, is quite lengthy and nowhere near as stringently defined as per requesting a certified copy.

In the same statute, 338, Paragraph 13 (g) says the following:

The department shall not issue a verification in lieu of a certified copy of any such record, or any part thereof, unless it is satisfied that the applicant requesting a verification is:

(1) A person who has a direct and tangible interest in the record but requests a verification in lieu of a certified copy;

(2) A governmental agency or organization who for a legitimate government purpose maintains and needs to update official lists of persons in the ordinary course of the agency's or organization's activities;

(3) A governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks confirmation of a certified copy of any such record submitted in support of or information provided about a vital event relating to any such record and contained in an official application made in the ordinary course of the agency's or organization's activities by an individual seeking employment with, entrance to, or the services or products of the agency or organization;

(4) A private or government attorney who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record which was acquired during the course of or for purposes of legal proceedings; or

(5) An individual employed, endorsed, or sponsored by a governmental, private, social, or educational agency or organization who seeks to confirm information about a vital event relating to any such record in preparation of reports or publications by the agency or organization for research or educational purposes.

Is it beginning to sink in yet just how many different individuals or groups could have easily obtained a Letter of Verification for Obama?

You know what? They still can, and Hawaii's DOH can be sued if they refuse to do so. Hawaii would have a tough sell claiming that a Letter of Verification is protected by Privacy Laws when the COLB that was posted online made all of its data fields a part of the public record since June 2008. A Letter of Verification prints the exact, same data fields as does the COLB. The only things missing from it are the certification elements, namely the Seal and Registrar's stamp.

Maybe Alan Keyes would try to order one, or a government official. A head of a non-profit social service agency, or a church, could try.

The only way to determine if it is possible, is for someone to do it, and then, if Hawaii's DOH balks, sue them for violating Hawaii statute 338-13(g).

[Polarik]

You would have to waterboard the Democrats to get them to produce Obama’s BC. Same, same for attacking Shelby.

[BP2]

>>> So he's ruling McCain out too?

As much as I respect McCain for his duty to his country, I'd have to say he's is was always OUT (just like BHO), based upon the fact he was not born on American soil. Panama was a land-lease, and he was born outside of the Canal Zone anyway.

He's an American citizen, just not a NBC:

Why Senator John McCain Cannot Be President: Eleven Months and a Hundred Yards Short of Citizenship (Arizona Legal Studies Discussion Paper No. 08-14)

[null and void]

Cyropaedia ~ “You have to be born in America to be president.”

Non-Sequitur ~ So he's ruling McCain out too?

*shrug* I would.

[null and void]

Assuming, of course that the document itself hasn't been counterfeited or altered.

BTW, has ANYONE who is not FIRMLY and UNQUESTIONABLY in the 0bama camp seen and touched the paper document?

Who?

[null and void]

You would have to waterboard the Democrats to get them to produce Obama’s BC.

Works for me...

[BP2]

No, they've all been “programed” to point to the Fight the Smears version... I'm sure that's all that ANYONE has seen, except for Obama.

I hope you appreciate me “taking one for the team” this morning, Null and Void — I opened up “Dreams of My Father” to pull these two quotes from the book (I feel the need to take a shower to get the grime off me now — yuck):

“If so, they (his grandparents) miscalculated not only my mother’s quiet determination but also the sway of their own emotions. First the baby arrived, eight pounds, two ounces, with ten toes and ten fingers and hungry for food. What in the heck were they supposed to do?”

"I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school. It’s a short piece, with a photograph of him. No mention is made of my mother or me, and I’m left to wonder whether the omission was intentional on my father’s part, in anticipation of his long departure. Perhaps the reporter failed to ask personal questions, intimidated by my father’s imperious manner; or perhaps it was an editorial decision, not part of the simple story that they were looking for. I wonder, too, whether the omission caused a fight between my parents."

[Chief Engineer]

Thanks for the weight info. I googled “How much did Obama weigh when he was born?” and the results were definitely not 8 lbs. 2ozs. Instead google placed such things as how Jr has so much weighing on his mind, and his statements about Jessica Simpson having a weight problem. Guess I couldn’t expect more from Google!

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks BP2.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

He can be removed from office if he was not born here.

You and Shelby have that wrong...I am pretty sure...

Example is McCain...born outside the US to Parents who were both US Citizens and whose father was serving in the US Navy....

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Fact Check is part of the Democrat machine.

That seems to be in question...Obama has minions operating outside of visible Democrat Party organization...rumor has him issuing Executive orders which are not visible...to the general public.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Crapola....!