Some Think Secession Is Un-American

The Bulletin ^ | 4-22-09 | Joe Murray

[AmericanHunter]

When Texas Gov. Rick Perry floated the idea of secession if the federal government continues to pursue an aggressive tax-and-spend policy, the mainstream media, as well as the political establishment, cringed.

MSNBC’s Chris Matthews called talk of secession “whack-job stuff,” calling Mr. Perry a “bozo” and telling the Texas governor, “You don’t have a choice buddy.” Mr. Matthews’ colleague, Rachael Maddow, said Mr. Perry was “flirting to the point of adultery” by talking about secession, while commentator Thomas Frank reinforced the disconnect between the media and many Americans.

“What you’re seeing … what is one of the surprising things about these tea parties … surprising to people like you and me, is how mainstream extremism is in the Republican Party and the conservative movement,” Mr. Frank, author of Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule, told Ms. Maddow.

But is the idea of secession a foreign concept to the American experience? Is talk of secession automatically treasonous? Is any secessionist movement doomed to be defined by the Civil War and exiled to the political wilderness?

“I think the biggest surprise to me was the outrage expressed by an individual who even thinks ... along these lines,” U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, said yesterday on CNN’s American Morning.

“Because I heard people say, well, ‘this was treason,’ they say, and ‘this was un-American.’ But don’t they remember how we came in to our being? We used secession. We seceded from England. So it’s a very good principle. It’s a principle of a free society. It’s a shame we don’t have it anymore.”

Dr. Paul, who ran a hard fought grassroots campaign for the Republican nomination in 2008, argued the principle of secession is one that protects the union rather than threatens it.

“I argue that if you have the principle of secession, our federal government wouldn’t be as intrusive into state affairs. And to me, that would be very good,” Dr. Paul said. “We as a nation have endorsed secession all along. I mean, think of all the secession of the countries and the Republicans from the Soviet system. We were delighted. We love it. And yet we get hysterical over this.”

Critics of the coverage of the secession comment argue the media is trying to paint the Republican Party as extreme. They say Mr. Perry was not advocating secession, but rather saying the federal government could cause its resurrection.

“We got a great union. There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that?” Mr. Perry asked.

While the notion of secession was floated by Mr. Perry, he was not expressly advocating Texas leave the Union. Rather, the Texas governor used the idea in a manner Dr. Paul believes is historically accurate — to send a warning shot across the bow of a federal government that is encroaching on state’s rights and individual liberties.

Last week’s tea parties exposed a major rift in the country, and some are concerned the Obama administration does not understand the degree of dissent that is fomenting outside the Beltway. And despite panning by the political establishment, the majority of the nation viewed tea party dissent in a favorable light.

Fifty-one percent of Americans had a favorable view of the nationwide rallies, while 32 percent responded their view was very favorable, according to a poll released by Rasmussen Reports. A third of the nation had an unfavorable view with 15 percent unsure.

But among the nation’s “Political Class,” Rasmussen found just 13 percent held a favorable assessment and zero percent held a very favorable view of the nationwide protest. This disconnect, according to Dr. Paul, is a major part of the problem.

“People are angry. And if we don’t sense that, we don’t know it’s actually what’s going on there,” the Texas congressman said. Dr. Paul said the worst is yet to come because secession will achieve a greater legitimacy as the country struggles.

“When the dollar collapses and the federal government can’t fulfill any of its promises, what if they send you dollars and they don’t work,” Dr. Paul said. “People are just going to — they’re not going to have a violent cessation. They’re just going to ignore the federal government because they will be inept.”

[Jeff Head]

Well, one thing is for sure, it ended up working out pretty good when we seceeded from King George.

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[shadeaud]

Passing yourself off as an objective host of a news show is wacky there Crissy boy

[avacado]

An overlording central government is unAmerican.

[Star Traveler]

“Some Think Secession Is Un-American”

—

Well..., it’s just that Abraham Lincoln settled that issue for all the states. And the states that did secede, originally, in order to come back into the Union again, they ended up giving up that right, which may have been there originally — but is not no longer there (since Lincoln “decided” the issue by a bloody war we had...).

[djsherin]

Ron Paul Ping

[djsherin]

Ping

[Pantera]

Ignoring the 10th amendment is unAmerican and makes the contract between the states and the federal government null and void. States and individuals are not required by the constitution to be slaves to the federal government.

The list of grievances is already a mile long and the upcoming cap and trade will fragment the union IMHO.

[Wallace T.]

The liberals are consummate hypocrites on the matter of secession and local resistance to the central government. In the 1990s, the Clinton administration supported the secession of Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzogovina from Yugoslavia. The Obama administration is currently supporting a two state solution for the Palestinian issue, carving out a Palestinian state from Israel's post-1967 territory. There is also hypocrisy in liberals’ attitude toward states' rights. The sanctuary cities movement and the state level legalization of so-called medical marijuana, attempts to nullify Federal immigration law, are justified in a manner similiar to what Southern segregationists used in the 1950s and 1960s to justify resistance to Federally enforced integration of public accommodations. The Second Vermont Republic movement is dominated by the sort of leftists who hold anti-GATT and World Bank protests and espouse environmental purism.

[massgopguy]

He didn’t say that when Vermont had a state house motion made to secede.

[bamahead]

“I argue that if you have the principle of secession, our federal government wouldn’t be as intrusive into state affairs. And to me, that would be very good,”



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!

[Safrguns]

I believe the issue here is the proper and long overdue actions by the states of forcing a legal battle in the courts... to challenge the judicial branch to exercise some checks and balances over the legislature, which is clearly in the process of marginalizing the constitution out of existence or relevance. Unfortunately, the supreme court itself appears to be just as hell bent on destroying the constitution as well.

Our state governments represent the last line of defense for our individual liberties short of mob-style public revolution.

[MrB]

Our state governments represent the last line of defense for our individual liberties short of mob-style public revolution.

KEY POINT.

[Pantera]

Our state governments represent the last line of defense for our individual liberties short of mob-style public revolution.

That's the fact, Jack!

[Eternal_Bear]

I’m sure the Chinese, Russians and Islamists will approve of us breaking down into smaller countries. Divide and Conquer is a concept as old as war.

[Wallace T.]

Never believe the liberals’ claim to being pacifist or anti-war, or for that matter, on anything. The science fiction writer, Robert Heinlein, noted that when opportunity arose, pacifists would raise the Jolly Roger.

[Reaganesque]

Radical it may be but it is written into our founding documents which themselves were radical documents at the time.

...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Now it does say that this should not happen for "light and transient causes" and that this should only be a resort after "a long train of abuses and usurpations." We're only in the first 4 months of this administration and most of what Obama wants to do are still only proposals. We still have the 2010 elections before us and the 2012 elections after that so, while we reserve the right, as guaranteed in our founding documents, to "abolish" a government that has become destructive to our natural rights, we still have remedy within the existing system to prevent or correct the "usurpations" this administration desires to inflict upon us. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[djsherin]

And you think they could actually defeat us on our soil and keep an occupation force here? And what’s to prevent seceding states from banding together to form a new union based on the original intent of the Constitution?

[DeLaine]

The libs don’t want to give up their power.

[DwFry]

screw Lincoln

[EGPWS]

Some Think Secession Is Un-American

With the way things are going it may soon be the only option available.

[Star Traveler]

I think some states tried to, but they failed...LOL...

[GladesGuru]

If a “right” is G*d given, rather than given to us by some goober in a gooberment agency, then that right is always ours.

I believe I am correct when I say that Lincoln won a war but could not remove the rights which the Declaration of Independence refers to.

Since the Declaration of Independence has not been changed, Man (note I didn’t restrict the discussion to Americans) can still claim the rights mentioned therein.

Whether we decide to act on that right is our choice.

Obama, being a Chicago, minority activist who accepted the communism of Alinsky and Davis, will have a hard time understanding what the Founding Documents actually say.

That Obama and his ilk, misunderstand the TEA Party movement is almost a given.

Congress had better wake up and smell the outrage,lest the rage increase. When he tells the world America is not a Christian nation, he angered many. His whimpy, Muslim-centric attitude caused him to prolong the pirate standoff, and his communism is also angering many.

Time to prepare for the worst, and, just as important, call your Congress Critters regularly.

[drdirt333]

Secession is the best answer. The South has the econmy, resources and is gaining the political will to make a better nation.

[Vendome]

While I don't believe we are at the point of secession how could standing for a individual right be Un-American. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights describe and enumerate the individuals rights, as God Given. In other words, the individual rights is not a privilege or grant of the government but rather the government's right to abridge the individual is superseded by an inherent right.

The Constitution and Bill rights explain the role of the Republic Government of the United States while at the same limiting the powers of the government.

The Constitution acknowledges the organization of the states by consent. That consent being derived from the will or permission of the people and their desire for the government to act on their behalf.

The Constitution is basically a permission slip to loosely bring the states into a federation thereby strengthening the ability of the collective states in bargaining with other countries and organizing, nationally, for the interest of the states.

The state also have constitutions with most of those organized in the same manner as the National Constitution.

Again, they acknowledge God and that certain inalienable rights are guaranteed by God and the further describe the individuals rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

At all times the Federal government is limited in it's power with the rest of the power, to act, being delegated to the states.

The states also are organized at the consent of the people and votes are tallied by the individual at the district or county level.

All states retain the right of secession as they operate under a federal of sovereign and independent states. Of which they make their own laws, unique to the state and regions within.

All state constitutions recognize their sovereignty and individual rights. Further the 10th amendment of the Constitution recognizes the right of sovereignty, within the borders of each state. It is enumerated. To wit, not a guarantee, permission or franchise with limitations. But an right inherent to a territory or state that existed independently of the United States but now has joined into the federal system.

At any time the people of the state, who have an individual right to exercise the will of the people, who have sovereignty within the borders of said state can refuse to to participate in the federal system.

This would mean, of course, they are now an independent country and would have form their own policies around currency, transportation, etc.

[PLD]

Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right to secede from the Union . (Reference the Texas-American Annexation Treaty of 1848.)

We Texans love y’all, but we’ll probably have to
Take action since B. Hussein Obama won the election. We’ll miss you too.

Here is what can happen:

#1:Since Barack Hussein Obama became President of the United States , Texas will have to secedes from the Union .

#2: George W. Bush will become the President of the Republic of Texas .

So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?

1. NASA is just south of Houston , Texas . We will control the space industry.

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States .

3. Defense Industry—we have over 65% of it. The term “Don’t mess with Texas ,” will take on a whole
New meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will need for the next 300 years. Yankee states? Sorry about that.

5. Natural Gas - again we have all we need and it’s too bad about those Northern States. John Kerry will have to figure out a way to keep them warm....

6. Computer Industry - we currently lead the nation in producing computer chips and communications—small companies like Texas Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon,
> National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Miconductor, Dallas Semiconductor, Delphi, Nortel, Alcatel, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.

7. Medical Care - We have the largest research centers for cancer research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world, as well as other large health centers. Dallas has some of the best hospitals in the United States .

8. We have enough colleges to keep us going: University of Texas , Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Rice, SMU, University of Houston , Baylor, UNT ( University of North Texas ), Texas
Women’s University, etc. Ivy grows better in the South anyway.

9. We have a ready supply of workers. We could just open the border when we need some more.

10. We have essential control of the paper industry, plastics, insurance, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas
National Guard and the Texas Air National
Guard. We don’t have an Army, but since everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one. If the situation really gets bad,
We can always call the Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over Chuck Norris and a couple of Texas Rangers.

12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, and several types of grain, fruit and vegetables, and let’s not forget seafood from the Gulf. Also, everybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste good. Don’t need any food.

This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of Texas in good shape. There isn’t a thing out there that we need and don’t have.

Now to the rest of the United States under President Obama:

Since you won’t have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only President Obama will be able to drive around in his big 9 mpg SUV. The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.

You won’t have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off satellite communications.

You won’t have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since Mr. Obama has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas as long as you survive the 2000 years it will take to get enough heat from Global Warming.

Signed, The People of Texas

P.S. This is not a threatening letter - just a note to give you something to think about!

SLEEP WELL TONIGHT THE EYES OF TEXAS ARE UPON YOU!!

One Nation Under God

[MrB]

Obama, being a Chicago, minority activist who accepted the communism of Alinsky and Davis, will have a hard time understanding what the Founding Documents actually say.

Reminds me of this passage, stating how the bible is nonsense to those who are "of the world" and not "of the Spirit of Truth".

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (New International Version)

12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Star Traveler]

I would suppose — then — that you are in full support of the secession movement by the Lakotah Sioux... :-)

If you support that movement and get it accomplished for those Indians, you will be setting up a good precedent for others, then...

---

Published on Friday, December 21, 2007 by Rapid City Journal (South Dakota)
Lakota Sioux Secede From US, Declare Independence
by Bill Harlan

Political activist Russell Means, a founder of the American Indian Movement, says he and other members of Lakota tribes have renounced treaties and are withdrawing from the United States.

“We are now a free country and independent of the United States of America,” Means said in a telephone interview. “This is all completely legal.”

Means said a Lakota delegation on Monday delivered a statement of “unilateral withdrawal” from the United States to the U.S. State Department in Washington.

The State Department did not respond. “That’ll take some time,” Means said.

Meanwhile, the delegation has delivered copies of the letter to the embassies of Bolivia, Venezuela, Chile and South Africa. “We’re asking for recognition,” Means said, adding that Ireland and East Timor are “very interested” in the declaration.

[ ... ]

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/21/5946

---

The Republic of Lakotah
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

I wonder how many FReepers are in support of this secession? And considering that a lot of FReepers are suggesting secession — I would think they would be *all out in support* of these Indians...

[Finalapproach29er]

#2: George W. Bush will become the President of the Republic of Texas .
********
Go ahead. He’ll bankrupt you too.

[Star Traveler]

Note post #28 — are you supporting this secession?

[DTogo]

The Constitution trumps the Union.

If the Union no longer wants to follow the Constitution, why be a part of it?

[Eternal_Bear]

If seceding states can band together to form a new union, then why secede at all? Why not work within the present system?

[stainlessbanner]

Dixie Ping

[DwFry]

“...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”

Years ago Lincoln made this null & void. Why fools like you still praise him for it I cannot understand.

May your chains wear lightly...

[myself6]

The “issue” of secession cannot be settled.

There does not need to be any legal framework for it or laws and policies allowing it. It is something free people do when they no longer wish to be associated with another person, people, group, government, etc...

Only those who have accepted their bondage see secession as illegitimate.

[Star Traveler]

I just want to know if you’re going to support the Lakotah for their secession. They’re a “lot further along” than anyone here, and they’ll “set the precedent” for it.

So, are you supporting the Lakotah to secede from the Union?

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

No tyranny is “settled” as long as millions of us are still armed.

[STONEWALLS]

...oh the country will break apart alright but it won’t be along political lines...it will be race war...ethnic wars of secession and partition are occuring all around the globe....in time they will come here too.....see Thomas Chittum’s “Civil War Two:the coming breakup of America”

[DwFry]

I dont give a sh*t about the Lakota Sioux one way or the other. Now grow up & stop trying to change the subject.

[Star Traveler]

So, that means you’re supporting the Republic of Lakota, in their secession from the United States? [ post #28... ]

[Star Traveler]

If you support the right of secession, then they’ve got that right, too...

Apparently you’re not supporting the right to secede from the union, it would appear...

[MrB]

wow, hope you’re way off base.

I know a number of black acquaintances who are VERY conservative.

[MamaTexan]

Thanks for the PING!

-----

As the Democrat party continues to use the federal government as a mechanism to steamroll the Constitution and the Rights of the People, I honestly believe secession will become an option.

Were the people regarded in this transaction as forming one nation, the will of the majority of the whole people of the United States, would bind the minority; in the same manner as the majority in each State must bind the minority; and the will of the majority must be determined either by a comparison of the individual votes; or by considering the will of a majority of the States, as evidence of the will of a majority of the people of the United States. Neither of these rules has been adopted. Each State in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation then the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal and not a national Constitution.
Federalist, no. 39, James Madison, 16 Jan. 1788

[MamaTexan]

And the states that did secede, originally, in order to come back into the Union again, they ended up giving up that right, which may have been there originally

LOL! Great post.

Despite the notion the War decided the issue of secession, the Constitution was never altered to reflect it. There are other clauses to restrict the beast.

Thus, the original intent of the voluntary compact remains intact.

[PLD]

I did not write this but I can tell you I would vote for GWB again in a heart beat...After what his Muslim has done in just 100 days I am not looking foeward to four years..And besides we Texans will run our country the president is in name only..We are still allowed our right to bear arms and we will be able to take care of any problems that come our way..And if this ever did happen 9us leaving the union) then we would have thousands of other great Americans jion us and live here along side of us..

[Star Traveler]

So, would that mean that you’re supporting the Republic of Lakotah, in their secession from the United States?

[ post #28... ]

[awake-n-angry]

“Because I heard people say, well, ‘this was treason,’ they say, and ‘this was un-American.’ But don’t they remember how we came in to our being? We used secession. We seceded from England. So it’s a very good principle. It’s a principle of a free society. It’s a shame we don’t have it anymore.”
________________

Yes we did become Americans by first becoming treasonous Brits. Anyone who thinks and speaks seriously about secession is a cowardly, unpatriotic sack of crap.

“We lost an election....wahhhhhhh!!!!!”, “I’m having a hard time convincing people that my point of view is the best.....wahhhhh!!!!!” Cowboy the F*$# Up and quit your whining.

If anyone thinks that what is happening now is in anyway comparable to tyrranical rule of the Nazi facist regime or Soviet domination of Eastern Europe spits on those who actually suffered through those periods in world history.

Organize, become active and use the Democratic system that was bestowed upon us by God to make changes that have to be made. You seem to forget how blessed we are compared to all of those who don’t have the political resources that have been awarded to us as a gift from God and those who have been willing to shed blood for this Nation.

Yeah, I’m sure Ronal Reagan would be talking about secession right now. Get a grip!

[DwFry]

Ok, I can play this game too.

If you’re against the right of secession, then you’re this too:

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”

Now you explain why this was good for us once but now its wrong. Especially when were reserved the right to do it all over again as the above so clearly points out.

As for the Lakota, I never knew there was an American state called “Lakota”

[Star Traveler]

It’s by treaty, they were a sovereign nation and they never gave up the right to secede....

Congress even recognizes the issue by trying to get the Lakotah to “settle” the issue by giving them hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation. They’ve refused the compensation and demand their sovereign nation back which is guaranteed by their treaty (with the U.S.) one sovereign nation to another sovereign nation...

They’ve got a *stronger case* for secession than anyone I’ve ever seen before...

[MamaTexan]

So, would that mean that you’re supporting the Republic of Lakotah, in their secession from the United States?

Well, that would depend. From #28

Political activist Russell Means, a founder of the American Indian Movement, says he and other members of Lakota tribes have renounced treaties and are withdrawing from the United States.

This 'political activist' and these 'members of Lakota tribes', were they elected by the People of the tribes to construct a Declaration of Separation, are are they just a bunch of blowhards with their panties in a twist?