Posted on 07/29/2009 8:58:42 AM PDT by LS
Freepers: in preparing for radio shows and appearances, I need some information. Yes, it's here (someplace) on FR, usually buried in a myriad of links. So I'm asking your help to get some concise and clear answers on some "birther" issues:
1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?" If so, what are the specific differences, and can a non-U.S. citizen obtain either or both?
2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?
3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?
4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).
5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)
The other is the statement from Fukino or whatever the lady's name is from the Hawaiian government who stated unequivocally that BO is a "natural born citizen." Now, she may be lying, but to have someone from that high up in a state government say something that definitive is certainly an issue.
She said Natural Born according to the laws of Hawai’i did she not?
That is not the same as Natural Born Constitutionally.
She didn't say that at all. She said this:
“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barrack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen."
She's not verifying it. The vital recordS (plural) on file verify this. What vital recordS (plural)?
If there's a valid long form birth certificate there's only ONE vital record.
BUT if he filed for a late birth certificate then the vital recordS (plural) would be the documents he used to establish the proof that he was born in Hawaii.
If he wasn't really born there but obtained a late filed birth record based on false evidence, then the vital record(S) do verify it. BUT that doesn't mean it's true.
On July 27, 2009 Janice Okubo told WorldNetDaily, “I am not aware of any birth certificate records that have been destroyed by the department. When the department went electronic in 2001, vital records, whether in paper form or any other form, [were] maintained. We don’t destroy records. Any records that we had in paper or any other form before 2001 are still in file within the department. We have not destroyed any vital statistics records that we have.”
What is going on here? Either the political research department at CNN is a complete joke or the Hawaiian Dept of Health has been changing its story.
We know from a document posted on June 10, 2009 on the Department of Hawaiian Homelands website that, up until very recently, either the original paper Certificates of Live Birth and/or scanned images of those paper certificates were maintained by the Dept of Health, and copies of them were provided to confirm claims of Hawaiian ancestry. But if in June 2009 the Department of Hawaiian Homelands has decided that it will no longer require the original Certificate of Live Birth as proof for special privileges and the Department of Health spokesman says firmly that they will no longer provide copies of these original certificates, is it possible that, in the midst of the controversy over where Barack Obama was born, the Hawaiian state govt has destroyed the original paper certificate of live birth? This seems almost incredible to me, but the authorities have been so deceptive and evasive on this issue, that it cannot be dismissed as impossible.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
The above is why I question what the HDH is doing and saying.
Have you seen the microfilm?
All I've seen is a scan of the microfilm print-out.
It would be interesting to see the actual microfilm.
“Barack (Sr) was also worried about what his father would think because I was so young, but he gave us his approval. He sent my mother and father 14 cows for my dowry.
“Barack’s father was only a cook so it was a big sacrifice. Very soon after, we were married.”
That was January 1957. Kezia and Barack Snr set up home in Jericho, a section of Nairobi created for government employees, and began a family.
First son Roy was born in March 1958. Kezia insisted: “Barack was a good husband.”
It was not long before Barack’s potential was noticed
By the summer of 1959, he was bound for Hawaii, leaving Kezia three months pregnant with Auma.
Kezia said: “I went with him to the airport. He gave me a cuddle and I was crying.”
“He said, ‘Bye bye, see you later when I come back.’”
Instead, Barack Sr met Barack Jr’s mother, Ann, in Honolulu. She was an 18-year-old fellow student from Kansas and within months they were united in what appears to have been a bigamist marriage.
Barack Jnr was born in August, 1961.
Two years later, Barack Snr was accepted at Harvard and left Ann and their little boy behind for the east coast.
Throughout this time he had written regularly to Kezia, even sending pictures of Ann and Barack Jr.
What he failed to tell his first wife was that he had also met a second new woman, an American teacher called Ruth.
Nor did he tell her, on his return to Kenya in 1965, that she had become his third wife.
Kezia said: “I’d moved to the family compound in Alego. When Barack got back, he came to see me and said, ‘I don’t have a job or a house yet. When I get settled I will come back for you.’”
But Barack Snr then lost both legs in a car crash coming back from a nightclub - and Kezia discovered the truth.
She said: “When I went to see him in the hospital I thought, ‘What is that lady in there with him for?’”
“Then Barack said: ‘This is Ruth.’ Next he turned to Ruth and said: ‘I have a wife and two children.’”
He continued to see Kezia and had son Abo with her in 1968, followed by Bernard in 1970.
Kindergarten head Ruth divorced Barack after seven years and now has the surname Ndesandjo.
I don’t think you know what you are reading. What did the 16th amendment have to say about that fourth clause in Section 9?
Cut to the chase. Show me where it says you can’t amend the natural born citizen clause without a constitutional amendment.
“The long form for the Nordyke twins is now available on the Net and the address for the Nordyke family on those forms is different from the images in the newspaper microfiche addy for Obamas.”
I read earlier that Obama used the Nordyke father’s business address (I believe that’s what I read)
I really meant to say Constitutional Convention..but yeah, show me where it says you can’t clarify the natural born citizen clause by an Act like 1790 signed by the President WHO SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION ..drafted by the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
And show where where you need a convention for an amendment about natural born citizen.
No. There was a travel advisory for Pakistan in 1981, but that didn't mean the US forbade travel there. It was an effort to make Americans aware of changed visa requirements by Pakistan, not a no-go list. You could find out more from the State Department.
The other question here is whether Pakistan banned visitors with US passports. I don't think that's true either. A visa was required, but I haven't seen that Americans were turned away at the border.
That’s interesting. I hadn’t seen that before. Classified ad? Or, do you mean telephone listing?
I had a baby around that same time, and I cannot imagine packing a 2 week old baby half way across the world. In fact, I cannot imagine a doctor allowing it. My husband and I had to move halfway across the country (we drove from IL back to CA) when our oldest was 4 weeks. Believe me that was an ordeal for all of us. And I had a husband to HELP! Nowhere is there a report of Mr. Obama being around to help Stanley Ann. Even if she flew, instead of driving, most planes were prop planes at that time and were slow. And once in Seattle? Who did she use for a baby sitter while she went to class? There were no nifty government programs then to care for your children while you went to school. And how about money? Where did she get the money for support?
Seems there was a “revising” frenzy in Hawaii the day before election day ALL having to do with birth certificates. Coincidentally:
Mon., Nov . 3, 2008
HONOLULU - Barack Obama’s grandmother, whose personality and bearing shaped much of the life of the Democratic presidential contender, has died, Obama announced Monday, one day before the election.
Interestingly enough, there is ALSO one dealing with new rules governing what happens to a persons documents AFTER death. #2 #3 #4 particularly interesting.
1. HRS_0338-0020_0005.htm
Context: persons. (a) The department of health shall establish a Hawaii certificate of birth for a person born in a foreign country and for whom child by adoptive parent or parents; (G) True or probable country of birth. The true or probable country of birth shall ...be known as the place of birth, and the date of birth shall be determined by birth; and (4) A request that a
Filesize: 6126
Electronic File Date: 11/3/2008 8:41:02 AM
2. HRS_0578-0014.htm
Context: The department shall cause to be made a new record of the birth in the name of the individual, as fixed or changed who consents to be named on the certificate. (b) If a new birth certificate is issued, the original birth certificate shall be sealed and a record of birth exists, the certified copy of the decree or the abstract ...thereof, shall be transmitted by the department of health to the birth registration authorities of the place of the individual’s birth with a
Filesize: 6899
Electronic File Date: 11/3/2008 8:45:54 AM
3. HRS_0626-0001-0803.htm
Context: portraits, engravings on urns, crypts, or tombstones, or the like. (14) Records of documents affecting an interest in property. The record of a document of a public office and an applicable statute authorizes the recording of documents of that kind in that office. (15)...Statements in documents affecting an interest in property. A statement contained in a or among the person’s associates, or in the community, concerning a person’s birth, adoption, marriage, divorce, death, legitimacy,
Filesize: 62599
Electronic File Date: 11/3/2008 8:46:10 AM
4. HRS_0710-1017_0005.htm
Context: document issued by a governmental agency, including a driver’s license, identification card, birth certificate, passport, or social security card. created the criminal offense of the sale or manufacture of deceptive identification documents. Testimony regarding the measure indicated that identification documents, such ...as driver licenses, identification cards, and birth certificates, have become prey falsified official identification documents. False identification documents could be used in place of authentic
Filesize: 5421
Electronic File Date: 11/3/2008 8:46:42 AM
*******************
[§710-1017.5] Sale or manufacture of deceptive identification document; penalties. (1) A person commits the offense of sale or manufacture of deceptive identification document if the person intentionally or knowingly manufactures, sells, offers for sale, furnishes, offers to be furnished, transports, offers to be transported, or imports or offers to be imported into this State a deceptive identification document.
(2) As used in this section, “deceptive identification document” means any identification document not issued by a governmental agency that purports to be, or that might deceive a reasonable person into believing that it is, an identification document issued by a governmental agency, including a driver’s license, identification card, birth certificate, passport, or social security card.
(3) The sale or manufacture of a deceptive identification document is a class C felony.
(4) Any property used or intended for use in the commission of, attempt to commit, or conspiracy to commit an offense under this section, or that facilitated or assisted such activity, shall be subject to forfeiture under chapter 712A. [L 2001, c 230, §1]
Cross References
Protection of personal information, civil remedies, see chapters 487J, 487N, and 487R.
COMMENTARY ON §710-1017.5
Act 230, Session Laws 2001, created the criminal offense of the sale or manufacture of deceptive identification documents. Testimony regarding the measure indicated that identification documents, such as driver licenses, identification cards, and birth certificates, have become prey to unscrupulous commercial enterprises that have created a market for selling falsified official identification documents. False identification documents could be used in place of authentic documents for everyday purposes, such as proof of identification, age, or citizenship. Senate Standing Committee Report No. 1131.
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Do we actually know that? Are you basing that on the notion that the supposed Obama COLB has his name written over hers on it? Because that's something I'd like to see the proof for.
Oh, I see what you are going to pull. the ole marbury Limitations On Amending power
Is there a Supreme Court case inquiring in the validity of an amendment ratified?
Nah, forget it. Just show me where you need a Constitutional Convention for a amendment to amend the natural born clause WHEN THERE HAS NEVER...I REPEAT NEVER...been an amendment done with a Convention.
Hawaii says you can have the record if you have a “tangible interest.” Apparently citizens do not have a tangible interest in the birth certificate of a prsident who is required to be natural born. Strange.
great question I am going to get in trouble for doing this on my cell at dinner. S I will give you answer in 1 or 2 hours.
Sorry
Yeah, now that you mention it, I see that. She said, “Yes, I’ve seen the document that says ‘x.’” But she doesn’t say that he is a natural born citizen. Good catch.
Another good catch. You guys indeed nail this stuff right away.
Thanks. I think this is correct.
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