Posted on 08/21/2009 9:13:19 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Leaders of the nation's biggest Lutheran denomination voted Friday to allow gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the church -- making it one of the largest Christian denominations in the country to significantly open the pulpit to gays.
Previously, only celibate gays were permitted to serve as clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a denomination of 4.8 million members. But delegates to a church assembly voted 559-451 to allow gays in "life-long, monogamous" relationships to serve as clergy and professional lay leaders in the church.
The vote is the culmination of a years-long process in the ELCA, and was accompanied by plenty of emotion at the convention in Minneapolis. After standing in long lines to reach microphones during debates that extended all day, some delegates shook and others cried as they expressed their opposition or support of the measure.
Quoting the Bible and denomination founder Martin Luther, delegates sought to place the decision within their interpretation of their Lutheran faith.
"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."
But other said the recommendations weaken the Biblical standards of the church.
"As Luther taught us, Scripture does not have a wax nose," said the Rev. Ryan Mills, a delegate representing Texas and Louisana. "It cannot be twisted into anything we want it to say. But that's just what we're doing with these following recommendations."
Conservatives tried to derail the vote, losing a ballot that would have required a supermajority of two-thirds to approve the proposal. They lost a similar vote earlier in the week.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
“We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus’ time and culture,” Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. “We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood.”
And Paul wrote:
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
So, uh, Mr Tim Mumm, you should maybe try to read your bible instead of getting your religion from TV: MSLBGT and Mr Rachel Maddov or whatever his name is. In Jesus day they certainly did understand the evils of homosexual behaviour and of course we know the evils today.
Congratulations Mr Mumms on destroying your church. Way to go.
And so goes another branch of Christianity, denying the very word of God. How disgusting!!
Does Mumm really believe that neither the Jews nor the Christians knew anything about homosexuality before today? Only someone completely devoid of any historical knowledge of the early church could be that dumb. The question that it does beg is whether or not God knew anything about homosexuality? If the Scriptures are “God-breathed,” then what Mumm is really saying is that God doesn't know what he is talking about. Mumm trusts the current secular culture over the Word of God.
I think their reasoning goes this way :
Clergymen are subject to sexual temptations be they heterosexual or homosexual.
Heterosexual clergy are tempted by attractive women to commit fornication or adultery. However, if they resist these temptation and remain celibate or faithful to their wives, they may serve.
Same principle applies to Gay clergy. The are also tempted. However, the source of their temptation is DIFFERENT from those of straight clergymen -— attractive men. However, if they also resist these temptation and remain celibate, they may also serve.
What is your argument against this line of reasoning ?
The words of Revelation 2:18-29 serve as a severe warning to all involved in this perversion, apostasy and sexual immorality:
Message to Thyatira
18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
20'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
24'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you.
25'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
26'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him the morning star.
29'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
Read your Bible. Homosexuality is an abomination in God’s eyes. Homosexuals have degenerate minds. Homosexuality is also a chosen lifestyle. Why are you seeking to play apologetics for what God calls an abomination?
Since when is the clearly understood Word of God put “up to a vote?”
The question is why limit it to “monogamous” affairs? Because the idea of group orgies is too ugly even for them?
And Christ’s blood makes being “a homosexual” into a past tense for a believer. We now have, instead, a saved sinner with temptations.
The ELCA slithers farther into insignificance.
Sorry not possible, it is not the nature of the mental disorder.
The ELCA slithers farther into insignificance.
Then why would such a creature want to be identified by sexual proclivities. Sorry, can’t agree with you that such an one is living the ‘faithe’ life.
Why not monogamous adultery? It’s ok as long as you only cheat on your spouse with just one person?
They wouldn’t. I’m not calling the “past tense” homosexuals the same as these “monogamous couples” the ELCA has seen fit to unleash on Christendom. The “past tense” homosexuals will seek to be free of the old habits, though they may fail from time to time. They won’t seek compromises to live in.
Clergymen and women chose to devote their lives to God’s work. At any point in time, they can chose otherwise. Temptation is everywhere, but if they truly have faith, then God will protect them.
The issue with gays comes down to how it is described in the Bible. I can understand recognizing that some people are gay, but if we allow them to teach the word of God, wouldn’t that be hypocritical? How would we view a convicted rapist conducting a sermon, or a thief and murderer?
Why should we turn on the word of God, simply because it’s convenient? These clergymen should recognize that they are living in sin, resign and seek guidance from God to change their ways.
Perverted homosexual acts were sin 4000 years ago when God rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah Mr. Mumm, that perversion was sin 3400 years ago when Moses wrote the Judaic Law code as dictated by God, it was sin when the Apostle Paul condemned it in his letter written to the Roman Christians under divine inspiration, it's sin today, and will still be sin tomorrow no matter what your opinion may be Mr. Mumm.
Any authentic, born again, Christ-honoring Christians who may be still hanging on to the ELCA hoping for a miracle to occur should get out now and find a local LCMS church to attend. The Missouri Synod is still faithful to Holy Scripture AFAIK, so there's no good reason for true Christian Lutherans to remain in an apostate ELCA church where God's holy, infallible Word is regarded as merely a collection of out of date opinions of ancient Hebrew scribes.
I regularly attend an evangelical, bible-believing, gospel preaching, local church, however I don't officially belong to any established denominational church. But if I were to choose one to join it certainly wouldn't be one that denies that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God, and/or that denies that perverted homosexual activity is sin.
That's the old policy of the ELCA, their new policy doesn't even require celibacy; or did you not read the article?
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