Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch
Evolution News & Views ^ | October 26, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 10/27/2009 8:11:33 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch

A few days ago we saw Ida fall from her overhyped status as an ancestor of humans. Now some scientists are claiming that Archaeopteryx should lose its status as an ancestor of modern birds. Calling Archaeopteryx an “icon of evolution,” the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) borrows a term from Jonathan Wells while reporting that “[t]he feathered creature called archaeopteryx, easily the world's most famous fossil remains, had been considered the first bird since Charles Darwin's day. When researchers put its celebrity bones under the microscope recently, though, they discovered that this icon of evolution might not have been a bird at all.”

According to the new research, inferences about growth rates made from studies of Archaeopteryx’s ancient fossilized bones show it developed much more slowly than modern birds. While the WSJ is reporting these doubts about Archaeopteryx’s ancestral status as if they were something new, those who follow the intelligent design movement know that such skepticism has been around for quite some time. In his 2000 book Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells discussed differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds and the implications for Archaeopteryx's place as an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds:

But there are too many structural differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds for the latter to be descendants of the former. In 1985, University of Kansas paleontologist Larry Martin wrote: “Archaopteryx is not ancestral of any group of modern birds.” Instead it is “the earliest known member of a totally extinct group of birds." And in 1996 paleontologist Mark Norell, of the American Museum of Natural History in New York, called Archaeopteryx “a very important fossil,” but added that most paleontologists now believe it is not a direct ancestor of modern birds.

(Jonathan Wells, Icons of Evolution, p. 116 (Regnery, 2000).)Archaeopteryx isn’t the only evolutionary icon losing its claim as the ancestor of birds. In recent months we’ve seen paleontologists increasingly arguing that the entire clade of dinosaurs should no longer be considered ancestral to birds. As the WSJ article states:

There are lingering doubts that birds today are descendants of dinosaurs. Researchers at Oregon State University recently argued that the distinctive anatomy that gives birds the lung capacity needed for flight means it is unlikely that birds descended from dinosaurs like archaeopteryx and its kin. Their findings were published in June in the Journal of Morphology.
As paleontologist John Ruben of Oregon State was quoted saying when his article was published:
But old theories die hard, Ruben said, especially when it comes to some of the most distinctive and romanticized animal species in world history.

"Frankly, there's a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions," Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that "some scientists disagree."

"Our work at OSU used to be pretty much the only asterisk they were talking about," Ruben said. "But now there are more asterisks all the time. That's part of the process of science."

("Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links," ScienceDaily, June 9, 2009.)While "museum politics" seem to dominate now more than ever when it comes to evolution, it's nice to at least see some of those asterisks getting a little attention in a major media outlet like Wall Street Journal.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; belongsinreligion; catastrophism; catholic; christian; creation; darwindrones; evangelical; evolution; evoreligionexposed; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; notasciencetopic; paleontology; propellerbeanie; protestant; science; templeofdarwin
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220221-234 next last
To: allmendream

Citations? That’s not how science works. In here, we take statements out of context and parrot stuff from AIG and ICR. THAT’S how you do the science.


181 posted on 10/28/2009 7:29:58 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3
And only the Designer has the password to change the DNA.

BTW - I like your tagline.

182 posted on 10/28/2009 7:31:46 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 175 | View Replies]

To: allmendream
You need to lighten up and enjoy life a little. The sources for PE are historic, numerous and redundant. I suggest you google Eldregde and Gould then take your pick. You have never attempted in good faith to carry on a meaningful discussion by answering other questions. Therefore it is easy to loose interest in you and your posts. If wish to have discourse you will need to at least attempt to answer my questions concerning your understanding of your comments about airplanes and dogs and how they connect you to ID. I do not believe you will answer the questions therefore let me wish you a good day.
183 posted on 10/28/2009 7:40:57 AM PDT by tongass kid
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: xcamel

“At least you have the “run to mommy” act down pat. Can’t think for yourself?”

You’re a bigoted immature troll. Plain and simple.


184 posted on 10/28/2009 8:51:54 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: scottdeus12

Coming from and ignorant boob of a crevo, I’ll take that as a compliment.


185 posted on 10/28/2009 9:07:58 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 184 | View Replies]

To: Wacka

So do all my clients, some of which are surveyors themselves that call me when they hit a snag that they can’t handle themselves.


186 posted on 10/28/2009 9:25:55 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: xcamel

“Coming from and ignorant boob of a crevo, I’ll take that as a compliment.”

Keep the insults coming, Troll.


187 posted on 10/28/2009 10:00:24 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 185 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

Still waiting for creationist researchers to explain how archaeopteryx can have flight feathers but not be a bird.


188 posted on 10/28/2009 10:08:05 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: scottdeus12

Just returning the favor, Luddite.


189 posted on 10/28/2009 10:08:23 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: RightWingNilla

“And only the Designer has the password to change the DNA.”

DNA is already programmed with a wide range of variation. Sometimes traits are selected and sometimes they remain dormant. Environment may play a role. If a pack of dogs live in a cold region then the genes for long hair may become dominant for example. The information was already there for long hair. After breeding together with other long haired dogs over time the information for short hair can be bred out.
Some traits can be selected by humans by breeding certain dogs together. This leads to a loss of genetic information which is how we end up with a pure breed. To get away from the pure breed you have to reintroduce the information. IOW, breed a pure bred with another dog.

Thanks about my tagline. It wasn’t original. I stole it from a friend.


190 posted on 10/28/2009 10:11:36 AM PDT by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: xcamel

“Just returning the favor, Luddite.”

Oh, whatever you do please stop calling me a Luddite - I really don’t want to be associated with the 19th century British.

LOL.


191 posted on 10/28/2009 10:23:42 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: christianhomeschoolmommaof3

Use a different book to teach your kiddies about genetics and biology, because you are wrong.


192 posted on 10/28/2009 10:41:52 AM PDT by Wacka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: tongass kid
I did answer your idiotic assertion that speaking of dogs as an example of how selective pressure can work means that I give any credence to the Incompetent Design (ID) ‘god of the gaps’ argument. I told you that Darwin himself used NUMEROUS examples of human selective breeding to show the power that NATURAL selection could have upon the traits of a species.

Just because selection can be used by intelligent agents to shape a species into desirable or beneficial forms; does not mean in any way shape or form that selective pressure upon genetic variation is not necessary and sufficient to explain the common descent of species without the direct intervention of a “designer” (wink wink).

You need to get serious and post an actual link to the contention that you stated, denied you said, admitted you said, reiterated... and now claim that you do not need to source.

193 posted on 10/28/2009 11:03:35 AM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: All

Will a creationist please step up to the plate and have the cojones to disagree with the creationist geocentrist on this thread?!

Pretty please?! ONE of you MUST certainly accept the fact that sun does not orbit the Earth.

I beg of you, restore my faith in humankind.


194 posted on 10/28/2009 11:07:38 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke

“ONE of you MUST certainly accept the fact that sun does not orbit the Earth.”

Does someone on this thread believe that?


195 posted on 10/28/2009 11:09:56 AM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]

To: scottdeus12; editor-surveyor
Does someone on this thread believe that? (Geocentrism)

Yes, editor-surveyor is a living, breathing geocentrist.

Lest you think this is schtick for some weird reason, it's not. He's written about it several times over many years here. (He also says that "Western medicine is unable to cure anything" and if you have cancer that your only hope is prayer. But that's a different subject.

I am puzzled as to why others of the same faith/crevo persuasion always seem afraid to confront stuff like this. On this thread (I think), two who accept evolution had a disagreement over the whole "theory/fact" thing. Dissent is OKAY. This IS a "FREE REPUBLIC," right? : )
196 posted on 10/28/2009 11:26:34 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: Wacka

Would you care to refute my statement or just make bold assertions?


197 posted on 10/28/2009 11:56:26 AM PDT by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: Wacka

BTW, don’t worry about what I teach my children. They aren’t your concern. You aren’t paying for their education.


198 posted on 10/28/2009 12:10:12 PM PDT by christianhomeschoolmommaof3 (Best thing about Cash for Clunkers is that 90% of the Obama bumper stickers are now off the road.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: allmendream

The concept of intelligent design is not limited genetics. Your example of bicycles and airplanes are significant examples of intelligent design. The bicycle and airplane are a product of intelligent design. Intelligent people have been given credit for designing those products. In order for you to refute the concept of intelligent design you must demonstrate that the bicycle and airplane came from no where and there was no intelligent designer of the the products. To date you have not understood ID unless you actually do believe that airplanes and bicycles appeared from no where with no designer involved. Additionally you will need to agree that the if there was a designer the designer was not intelligent. Your reference to dog breeding essentially suffers because without intelligent design those breeds of dogs would never occur by natural selection. If you have taken a genetics fruit fly lab you would clearly understand what happens to dogs and fruit flies that have undergone intelligent design and allowed to return to natural selection. If you do not enjoy the history of participating in a fruit fly lab it easy to get the point, observe the neighbor dogs off spring when intelligent design is no longer imposed on the breeding process. This is only an attempt to further your understand of ID and is not a personal attack. If you wish to continue the discussion it would be agreeable if you were to drop the name calling (”idiotic”) and personal attracts. I believe it is ok on these forms to disagree but not to be disagreeable. If these ground rules are not to you liking then we should do other things with our time.


199 posted on 10/28/2009 12:14:27 PM PDT by tongass kid
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: tongass kid

Is it fair for us to assume that english was not your birth tongue?

You appear to be way, WAY out of your depth here. Your contentions are devoid of any research or logic and really do sound like a 15 year old’s refutations. I don’t mean to offend, but that’s the way I see it.

Note: Airplanes and bicycles do not produce offspring. I know it was used as an example of a progression of a “kind,” (to use a creationist term), but it wasn’t meant as a direct correlation.

You seem hung-up on the idea that human-led selective breeding is so-called “Intelligent Design” and therefore changes in allele frequencies through time do not happen naturally, as a result of undirected selective pressures. I’m sorry, one does not follow the other. Not even close.


200 posted on 10/28/2009 12:38:47 PM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220221-234 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson