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The Truth About Pearl Harbor: A Debate [Did FDR know about Japan's plans in advance?]
The Independent Institute ^ | 30 January 2003 | Robert B. Stinnett, Stephen Budiansky

Posted on 12/07/2009 7:25:33 AM PST by oblomov

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To: Non-Sequitur

Willkie died suddenly in October of 1944, well after the primaries and nominations.


61 posted on 12/07/2009 9:02:23 AM PST by Cincinnatus
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To: Abby4116

“I am only saying that I believe that they knew that it was imminent”

I can believe they knew AN attack was coming, but not THE attack.


62 posted on 12/07/2009 9:03:52 AM PST by Tublecane
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To: Peter Horry

We knew from intercepts that the Japanese fleet had sent a force with 4 Carriers to sea, and that it was to be refueled at sea after 8 days.

We watched for that fleet (no satellites then), and it did not come south, toward the Philippines. The only other way it could go was East, and the only target in that direction, that far, was Hawaii.

We also knew that all regular Japanese merchant shipping was ordered to be back in Japanese home waters by Dec. 4.

So that alone would have been enough.

It was the belief then that no airplane could survive the intense, concentrated anti-aircraft from several battleships (hence, Battleship Row was considered the best defensive posture against an air attack).

It was also the belief that torpedoes could not be used in an attack from planes in Pearl Harbor, because the harbor was too shallow.

Both beliefs were obviously wrong. (Hopefully we won’t pay that kind of price again for being overconfident and under-estimating our foes...)


63 posted on 12/07/2009 9:04:41 AM PST by CondorFlight (I)
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To: oblomov

as much as I dislike FDr I doubt he let Pearl happen...

and I doubt his staff would have gone along...

and btw....they screwed Kimmel....Nimitz as much admitted it


64 posted on 12/07/2009 9:05:06 AM PST by wardaddy (Angel Flight by Radney Foster on GAC, if you don't tear up then you must be mighty cold)
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To: bvw

“for short of hell it does not solve the problems that lead to it.”

It rarely ever does anyway. Perhaps with the atom bomb.


65 posted on 12/07/2009 9:06:16 AM PST by Tublecane
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To: SoCal Pubbie
Germany had no treaty or agreement with Japan to fight anyone just because Japan did.

Except for the Tripartite Pact and, IIRC, there was an earlier one too.

66 posted on 12/07/2009 9:08:10 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (LIBERTY)
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To: don'tbedenied

This comes up like clockwork a couple of times a year. Almost makes me think there is an Outlook calendar event set somewhere.


67 posted on 12/07/2009 9:16:17 AM PST by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: Abby4116

“Put me in the believer column until someone offers definitive proof that it was not used as the only way to get the US people “

Don’t think I woulda posted that, no, don’t think I would’ve.


68 posted on 12/07/2009 9:16:25 AM PST by Peter Horry (Those who aren't responsible always know best.)
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To: BroJoeK
I did't see you on this thread yet. Here is a ping since this is an area of interest for you.

Homer

69 posted on 12/07/2009 9:16:25 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: oblomov
"It’s been often said that “Truth is the first casualty of war.”

Hey! I know where I last saw that line! That was in a Sean Penn movie about war! Funny that...

70 posted on 12/07/2009 9:19:46 AM PST by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: Tublecane
Yes, that’s the agenda, and it’s not a secret or anything.

Shades of Albert Pike.

71 posted on 12/07/2009 9:21:01 AM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by central planning.)
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To: Tublecane

Agreed. Good grief.


72 posted on 12/07/2009 9:21:18 AM PST by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: oblomov

FDR goaded the Japanese into it via sanctions. They knew it was coming. After the attack, Hitler thought it wise to declare war against the USA, since he thought that the Japanese would then enter the war against Russia. His big mistake. Had he not done that, we would have sent our resources to the Pacific. The majority of everything went to Europe. The Pacific theater was a side show, but it worked out by getting us involved in Europe, which wasn’t really a neutral stand by us up to that point. We had to save England from being invaded and stop Germany’s influence around the world. There is a lot more than meets the eye when it comes to WW II. You would think we learned from it, not.


73 posted on 12/07/2009 9:26:00 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (This isn't the America I was raised in. Mrs. Cleaver where are you?)
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To: rlmorel

“”This comes up like clockwork a couple of times a year. Almost makes me think there is an Outlook calendar event set somewhere.”

As does Hiroshima and Nagasaki, “the Japanese war effort was collapsing and the bombings were completely unnecessary.”

People can peer back through the blur of time and, with perfect clarity, see EXACTLY what the want to see.


74 posted on 12/07/2009 9:27:55 AM PST by Peter Horry (Those who aren't responsible always know best.)
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To: rhombus
In fact he specifically promised that we’d stay out of war.

Wilson promised we'd stay out of WWI. While Pearl Harbor was the official beginning of hostilities that involved the US, FDR had been supplying the Allies through lend-lease, so the US was hardly neutral.

There's debate on whether FDR knew about Pearl, but there's no debate about whether or not he wanted to be in the war, and which side he wanted to be on. Remember, there was quite a bit of debate about whether to support the Germans or the English. Joseph Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh both supported the Germans until hostilities actually began.

The US had also been engaged in low level naval warfare against the Germans in the north Atlantic, as the Germans had been sinking any ships attempting to dock in Britain. Civilian ships were being used to transport war supplies.

I'm not saying the US was wrong, but FDR definitely engaged in activities designed to provoke a military attack from both Germany and Japan.

75 posted on 12/07/2009 9:31:53 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: oblomov

Thank you.

I see the name-callers have arrived. Those that belch out “Truthers” etc. have obviously not read the book. It is complete with documents proving that FDR knew and enabled the Japs to attack Pearl Harbor on this day.

I am not a ‘truther’ by any stretch of the imagination but I am a realist. The book is on my desk as I type this. If I had time I would type out the entire text and scan the photos for those who can’t afford to buy the book.

However, Mrs. panax has me going through the attic getting Christmas decorations today. Believe me, typing the text would be a much easier task!

Thank God for the FOIA or Stinnett would not have been able to complete his 16 year project.

For those who wish to read the truth, they can purchase a used copy from ABE Book Exchange for a couple of dollars. Then they would have solid ground on which to preach against or in favor of what really happened 58 years ago today.

Again, I thank you.


76 posted on 12/07/2009 9:33:30 AM PST by panaxanax (It's time to start plucking the chickens and boiling the tar.)
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To: Peter Horry

I posted a clarification of what I meant.


77 posted on 12/07/2009 9:34:43 AM PST by Abby4116
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To: Peter Horry

November 25, 1941 Cabinet meeting:
According to Stimson’s testimony: “The President brought up the event that we were likely to be attacked perhaps [as soon as] next Monday, for the Japanese are notorious for making an attack without warning. In spite of the risk involved, however, in letting the Japanese fire the first shot, we realized that in order to have the full support of the American people, it was desirable to make sure that the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in anyone’s mind as to who were the aggressors.”
Naturally much of the information needed to make an evaluation of what transpired is not available to the public. However, there is much out there that could be validated by a genuine historian. There apparently is no interest. What was the role of Soviet agent, Harry Dexter White, in the preparation of the ultimatum sent to Japan. Did this ultimatum originate in Moscow?


78 posted on 12/07/2009 9:35:36 AM PST by Vehmgericht
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To: Richard Kimball

Agree FDR’s actions were provocative (e.g., Lend Lease, shipping supplies) but what were FDR’s motives for wanting to go to war?


79 posted on 12/07/2009 9:37:41 AM PST by rhombus
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To: oblomov

Too bad Taft didn’t get the info. Even in 1940, Willkie was pretty much an FDR shill. He was the John McCain of the 1940s.


80 posted on 12/07/2009 9:43:04 AM PST by Captain Kirk
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