Jury Finds Man Guilty of Murder in Kansas Abortion Provider’s Death

Foxnews.com ^ | 1/29/10

[FutureRocketMan]

WICHITA, Kan. — A man who said he killed prominent Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in order to save the lives of unborn children was convicted Friday of murder.

The jury deliberated for just 37 minutes before finding Scott Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., guilty of premeditated, first-degree murder in the May 31 shooting death.

[wtc911]

God guided Roeder's hand to murder?

wow.

[ohioWfan]

Please find me any specific evidence in Scripture that justifies murder. (Reference please).

There is nothing idiotic about adhering to the laws of God as written in His word. I'm sorry you felt the need to say my argument based on Scripture was "idiotic."

Roeder is not a hero. He broke the laws of God as deliniated in both the Old and New Testaments.

[ohioWfan]

I am basing my view on what I read in Scripture, in the 6th Commandment, and in the words of Jesus.

Shooting Jeffrey Dahmer would be murder.

"Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.."

Your presumption is huge that God told Roeder to murder anyone. God does not instruct people to violate His laws.

[whatisthetruth]

Isn't that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment given to us by the murderous, blood-thirsty Founding Fathers, to kill those in power who would take away our Liberty? That's kill, not murder, there is a difference

Well the current corrupt powers that be have been taking away the liberty of millions of our citizens for 37 years with government sanctioned genocide on the most vulnerable segment of our society, unfortunately it's too easy for most of us to put our collective heads in the sand and pretend it's not really happening on a day to day basis, the same way the German people did back when.

[ohioWfan]

Stop being an idiot...you, most likely would not sacrifice yourself in any way like the hero Roeder did

Since you seem to agree with eleni121 that Roeder had "moral courage" and was a "hero," then perhaps you can answer the same questions I asked her (which she is continuing to evade).....

Are you advocating the murder of any abortion doctor? (They all do the same thing, only to smaller human babies).
Do you have the moral courage to do the same thing?

I have never advocated "sacrificing myself" in this way, so your asking me is not based on anything I have said, but only on the criterion for heroism and courage stated by others. (I believe that I have the moral courage to do what is right under any circumstances, but have not been tested, as for instance, my son has).

So, no. I would not murder an abortionist, even though I consider abortion the deepest, darkest sin America has ever committed and have been a pro-life activist and advocate since the '70's.

What Roeder did, according to Scripture, is sin.

[whatisthetruth]

I do know that Satan is roaming this nation and causing suffering for millions and very few of us are willing to stand up for what is right.

50 million and counting..... "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[Wpin]

I have already explained what you asked, reread the posts. So, you advocate support for murder, is that correct? I do not believe that Roeder murdered, you will have a very difficult time explaining how that was murder from a moral stance when his entire focus was to stop the murder of innocents.

As you readily admit, you have never sacrificed yourself unselfishly, so how can you expect others to do the same? That is in part what makes Roeder a hero. He brought to justice a mass murdered knowing that his life would be “ruined” for it. What have you done so unselfishly?

I think someone who believes in the sanctity of life is confused if they cannot see the moral issue here that makes Roeder a hero. He literally stopped the murdering from Tiller and indeed his entire clinic shut down. They didn’t sell the money making clinic...they shut it down. The murderer from Nebraska did not come in and open another one, it was shut down. Roeder sacrificed himself, literally.

[Wpin]

I think you are mistaken. Don’t you believe that God wants us to fight for him? I believe that in God’s eyes, Roeder brought justice and stopped Tiller’s mass murder spree. You can believe differently, but I don’t think you can with any real authority.

What makes abortion so dangerous is that it sucks in people who are otherwise good to doing the work of evil or at least accepting it. Satan has learned since the Nazi’s and Communists from the twentieth century. I am wondering if you thought it was murder for soldiers to kill Nazi’s? To stop the murdering of innocent people? Is it a moral issue that is seperate because it involved government decisions? Are you then placing government in the role of a God? Would you agree that it was ok to kill jews if you had lived in nazi germany? Would you have said that it was murder if someone had killed a concentration camp captain and the camp shut down?

[ohioWfan]

So, you advocate support for murder, is that correct?

This is exactly the opposite of what I have said...... repeatedly.

As you readily admit, you have never sacrificed yourself unselfishly

I don't think violating God's laws can be categorized as "sacrificing" oneself. I have said that I believe that I would do the morally right thing under any circumstances, and I stand by that.

As I said before, there is no qualification in Jesus' words that we should not murder. There is no inkling of "if the guy is bad enough or has done enough wrong things" it's OK. It is morally wrong to murder.

I will continue to be a strong pro-life advocate, supporting the fight against this holocaust, donating to crisis pregnancy centers, supporting pro-life candidates. But I will never, ever, ever advocate violating the laws of God by supporting murder. Period.

[Wpin]

Simply look to Moses,David, and others in the scriptures who were aided by God to defeat their enemies.

You are twisting what Roeder did from a secular “legal” term and trying to make it fit in a moral biblical sense...What Roeder did was not murder in God’s eyes, it was killing a mass murderer. Find me where God supports mass murder anywhere in the bible other than to bring sinners to justice...wait...bringing sinners to justice. Do you think??

[ohioWfan]

You can believe differently, but I don’t think you can with any real authority.

I do with the authority of Scripture. Everything else is just our opinion.

I have already addressed the difference between Just War (soldiers, Hitler, Nazis), and individual vigilante murder (Roeder). They are on completely different ethical and moral planes.

Your question as to putting govt's in the role of God is ludicrous, and the antithesis of what I have said.

I choose to end my part of this conversation now because neither is going to convince the other. You may have the last word.

[ohioWfan]

See above post.

GOD will bring sinners to justice.

[Wpin]

“I don’t think violating God’s laws can be categorized as “sacrificing” oneself. I have said that I believe that I would do the morally right thing under any circumstances, and I stand by that.”

Roeder did not violate God’s law, he violated a secular governmental law that in truth is an illegal law to begin with.

“As I said before, there is no qualification in Jesus’ words that we should not murder. There is no inkling of “if the guy is bad enough or has done enough wrong things” it’s OK. It is morally wrong to murder.”

Again, Roeder did not murder...he brought to justice a murderer. You prefer to allow the murder to continue...that is your dilemma or paradox to morally deal with. I have my own...I would not sacrifice my life for this, but I recognize the heroism in Roeder for doing so and for so bravely telling the complete truth in his defense.

“I will continue to be a strong pro-life advocate, supporting the fight against this holocaust, donating to crisis pregnancy centers, supporting pro-life candidates. But I will never, ever, ever advocate violating the laws of God by supporting murder. Period.”

I wonder though...if we support the persecution of those who truly do make a difference in the fight for life if we can state that we are really pro life...maybe we are just like the people who donate twenty bucks to the Salvation Army each Christmas to make ourselves feel philanthropic...and hence, like good people.

I am glad you do what you do for the pro life movement, don’t get me wrong. We are dealing with deep issues here that deserve reflection, that’s all.

[Wpin]

“I have already addressed the difference between Just War (soldiers, Hitler, Nazis), and individual vigilante murder (Roeder). They are on completely different ethical and moral planes.”

You will need to explain your reasoning more to clarify your moral stance if it is other than government has the right to decide who lives and who dies...in other words has Godly power in your eyes. You openly use government as examples of “just war” and individuals as “vigilante murder”. I do not see any moral clarification or definition above other than government can and individuals cannot act morally in killing. That by definition would make Government God.

I would end the debate here also if I was you and was not willing to think about what I believe... :)

[ohioWfan]

You prefer to allow the murder to continue

This is an outright lie. Stop it.

(I prefer to end this conversation, but will not allow you to completely mischaracterize what I said in such an egregious manner).

State your views freely, but state them truthfully.

Again. I have finished my arguments based on Scripture. GOD will repay. We are not to murder.

[Balding_Eagle]

Tell us how your reasoning would apply in this ongoing case:

“The two women, Patricia Imani and Brianna Herrera, admit that they lay in the offramp from Interstate 5 in an effort to block the Strykers.

Both women said they should be found not guilty because they had to protest and although it was illegal, it prevented a greater harm.

“We have an obligation to resist, not just a right to resist. That is what these protests have been about since we started to do the human blockades against the Strykers,” Imani said.”

http://www.kirotv.com/news/22357712/detail.html

How are you different than these two women? I can’t see any difference.

[Wpin]

“This is an outright lie. Stop it.”

I have already stated that I am not willing to sacrifice my own life in order to help stop abortion. I prefer to allow the murder to continue is really the simplistic moral reality. It is harsh, but it is the bare, raw truth of the matter. Sorry if I offend you. These are deep moral issues that are not easy in any sense of the word. But, if one believes that abortion is murder and is not willing to sacrifice their life to end it...it is a preference to allow it to continue rather than pay that price. Mr. Roeder decided differently, he gave up his life to stop the murder. I think that he deserves our respect for that and not the demonization of him and his motives.

I have often wondered what my reaction would be to meeting an abortionist...I think I would literally vomit and run away in absolute disgust and horror. But, I know I would not kill one...not because I think it would be morally wrong, but because I am not willing to sacrifice my life for that...so, I just do a few things like donate money, post occasionally about it. I have never even gone so far as to protest on the streets.

The only pin I wear (I gave my W pin to Don King) is the little feet of the pro life movement, I wear it on a vest that I like. I also carry the Christian flag on the Tea Party protests I have attended. So, in truth I bury my head in the sand for the most part and live my life happily focusing on family, business, and hobbies.

Again, I am sorry if I offend you. That is not my intent, which is to get us to think about these moral issues with clarity and truth.

[Wpin]

Well, let’s see...

First of all, my discussion is about abortion and the moral implications of Roeder bringing to justice a mass murderer. These ladies are protesting against the United States on the War on Terror...

So, there are completely different set of circumstances and moral issues here. But, to answer your question directly. Like in the case of Roeder I would not sacrifice myself to fight against the War on Terror...but there are differences...in the former case it would mean sacrificing my life...I am not willing to do that. In the latter case, I am a supporter of the War on Terror so would not sacrifice myself to fight against it.

I am not sure I answered what you wanted, if not please give me some clarification.

[eleni121]

Since I believe that there is a war going on by and against those who kill children it is important to clarify when specifically violence can be used against those directly involved in ending the LIVES of the kids within the Christian context. My understanding of war in the context of the New Testament Christian creed is that there is just war and holy war.

The elimination of Tiller falls within the scope of a holy war as it has veeb defined by Aquinas, Chrysostom, and other saints over over the last 2000 years. The idea that we are “Shepherds guarding the flock against the wolves” if you will. The fact that our nation sanctions the killing of kids means that as Christians we are at war with our own nation.

Thoughts?

[Blood of Tyrants]

I don’t see him as a hero, but he did what his conscience told him. If he believed that the doctor was committing murder on a scale that would make any serial murderer in history look like a piker, then he simply acted on his beliefs. Except for the votes of one or two unelected, unaccountable justices of the Supreme Court, the abortion doctor WOULD be a murderer.