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Army Report: GIs Outgunned in Afghanistan
Politics Daily ^ | 04/2/10 | David Wood

Posted on 04/03/2010 1:03:04 PM PDT by neverdem

American troops are often outgunned by Afghan insurgents because they lack the precision weapons, deadly rounds, and training needed to kill the enemy in the long-distance firefights common in Afghanistan's rugged terrain, according to an internal Army study.

Unlike in Iraq, where most shooting took place at relatively short range in urban neighborhoods, U.S. troops in Afghanistan are more often attacked from high ground with light machine guns and mortars from well beyond 300 meters (327 yards, or just over three football field lengths). The average range for a small-arms firefight in Afghanistan is about 500 meters, according to the study.

Unless U.S. troops under attack call in artillery or air strikes and risk civilian casualties, the only way they can fight back is with long-distance precision shooting -- a capability currently in short supply among infantry units, according to a study done at the Army's School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., by Maj. Thomas P. Ehrhart.

According to Ehrhart's paper, Army infantrymen do not regularly train and practice shooting at distances of more than 300 meters. The round fired from their M4 carbines and M16 rifles, the 5.56mm bullet, don't carry enough velocity at long distances to kill.

While the Army has moved recently to equip each infantry company of about 200 soldiers with nine designated marksmen to overcome this problem, they don't often carry weapons with sufficient killing power at distance, and there aren't enough of them, Ehrhart reports.

Army spokesmen had no immediate comment on Ehrhart's paper, which was released by SAMS last month and given wider circulation by defensetech.org and the Kit Up! blog on military.com.

Most infantrymen in Afghanistan carry the M4 carbine, a version of the standard M16 rifle, but with a shorter barrel. It was designed to allow soldiers to operate from cramped armored vehicles and in the city neighborhoods of Iraq. But the shorter barrel robs the weapon of the ability to shoot accurately at long distances, because the bullet doesn't acquire as much stabilizing spin when it is fired as it does in a longer barrel.

Soldiers commonly are taught in training to use "suppressive fire,'' in effect returning enemy attacks with sprays of gunfire, which are often ineffective in Afghanistan.

One reason is the ineffectiveness of the most commonly used round, designated the M855. Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, was once accidentally shot in the chest with an M855 round from a light machine gun; rather than being killed, he walked out of the hospital several days later.

Ehrhart recalls seeing a soldier shot with a M855 round from a distance of 75 meters in training. Twenty minutes later he was "walking around smoking a cigarette.''

Such incidents may be flukes, but they do illustrate that the rounds can lack killing power. Most infantrymen are equipped to fire the M855 round from their M4 carbine, M16 rifle, or the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), a light machine gun. When a firefight erupts in Afghanistan, they are unable to fire back accurately at more than 200 or 300 meters, leaving it to soldiers with heavier weapons -- the M240 machine gun, 60-mm mortars or snipers equipped with M14 rifles.

"These [heavier] weapons represent 19 percent of the company's firepower,'' Ehrhart wrote, meaning that "81 percent of the company has little effect on the fight.

"This is unacceptable.''

One quick fix, he suggested, is to equip the designated marksmen within each company with a powerful weapon that can kill at long distances, the M110 sniper weapon, which is effective out to 800 meters.

These rifles are expensive -- about $8,000 apiece. But you could outfit every infantry squad in the Army with two M110 rifles for the price of one U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor supersonic stealthy fighter, Ehrhart noted.

Ironically, American doughboys in World War I were better trained and equipped for Afghanistan-style firefights than today's GIs.

"The U.S. infantry weapon has devolved from the World War I rifle capable of conducting lethal fire out to 1,200 yards, to the current weapon that can hit a target out to 300 meters but probably will not kill it,'' Ehrhart wrote.

The School of Advanced Military Studies, where Ehrhart was a student last year, trains the Army's brightest young officers for senior leadership. His unclassified paper, written last year, does not reflect official Army positions. But the paper has rocketed around in military circles and has been read avidly in some units preparing to deploy to Afghanistan.

But even before his report began circulating widely, some Army units were acting on the hard-learned lessons from Afghanistan, where the Army has been fighting for almost nine years.

Several weeks ago I watched an infantry battalion of the 10th Mountain Division's 4th Brigade Combat Team working on live fire maneuvers in central Wyoming.

One key focus, according to Command Sgt. Maj. Doug Maddi, was to hone soldiers' skills in high-angle and long-distance shooting -- precisely the skills not widely required in regular Army training, according to Ehrhart.

Where normal Army marksmanship training is often conducted on level ground against pop-up targets, Maddi and the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Chris Ramsey, had their men shooting up towering ridgelines and down steep inclines, and at distances out to 600 meters.

The battalion's troops, wearing their full battle kit, also were firing live rounds while running, and while running with heavy packs, up and down the steep Wyoming ridges.

"We're here to replicate the environment of Afghanistan," said Ramsey, who brought his battalion to Wyoming from its home base at Fort Polk, La. "We don't get this kind of terrain at home."

Ramsey told me he had not read Ehrhart's paper before his battalion deployed to Wyoming for a month's training in early February. Polishing those skills was "intuitive," he said. But he said the paper now has been read across the battalion.

At a meeting with reporters this week, Army Secretary John McHugh was asked whether he was familiar with the Ehrhart report. McHugh said he was not, but after hearing a brief description, he said he would track down the paper and read it.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; banglist; bhodod; ehrhart; ehrhartreport; guns; oef; oefsurge
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To: GreyFriar

yes it is. the SS109 is the current one in US military. It is fired with the 1:9 twist barrel.


21 posted on 04/03/2010 1:26:29 PM PDT by Perdogg (Nancy Pelosi did more damage to America on 03/21 than Al Qaeda did on 09/11)
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To: 50cal Smokepole

Why not go to DSA Arms and get the FAL-FN clones for $1700.

O wants our troops ground up in Afghan and Iraq for his bosses. He wants our best and bravest over there not back here.

http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-Original-Series/products/35/


22 posted on 04/03/2010 1:26:38 PM PDT by Frantzie (McCain=Obama's friend. McCain called AMERICANS against amnesty - "racists")
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To: GreyFriar

M14 production tooling was sold in 1967 to the Republic of China (Taiwan), who in 1968 began producing their Type 57 Rifle. The State Arsenal of the Republic of China produced over 1 million of these rifles from 1969 to the present under model numbers of M305 and M14S.

like china would sell ‘em back to us...


23 posted on 04/03/2010 1:28:02 PM PDT by stylin19a (Never buy a putter until you first get a chance to throw it)
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To: neverdem
The real problem, most likely, is that our men can't shoot until they get 400 clearances. By that time the rats have scurried away!
24 posted on 04/03/2010 1:28:08 PM PDT by parthian shot (America.... Founded on God and the Constitution ! We desperately need both.)
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To: BooBoo1000
Damn Mouse Guns, get a call into Ronnie Barrett Fast/

LOL!

Problem is they do have to be toted through some pretty tough terrain over there.

25 posted on 04/03/2010 1:28:20 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: oneolcop

7 MM is tops! let’s get some sporterized mausers...

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/30-caliber-vs-7mm-for-long-range-litz-offers-analysis/


26 posted on 04/03/2010 1:30:03 PM PDT by databoss
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To: neverdem
Here we go again....

The Army is doubling the number of 7.62mm weapons in the infantry squad, increasing soldiers’ long-range killing power in the wide-open expanses of Afghanistan.

27 posted on 04/03/2010 1:30:46 PM PDT by smokingfrog (Free Men will always be armed with the Truth.)
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To: All

I think the bigger issue are the rules of engagement that don’t allow artilery and air strikes to be called in. You shoot at us with a mortar or light arms fire, we rain down artilery fire or call in the warthogs.


28 posted on 04/03/2010 1:32:36 PM PDT by gunnut
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To: GreyFriar

I got it backwards when I wrote it. Momentary dyslexia. :-P


29 posted on 04/03/2010 1:32:54 PM PDT by Thane_Banquo (Mitt Romney: He's from Harvard, and he's here to help.)
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To: Mr Rogers
The AK isn't a terribly accurate weapon at any range from what I hear from soldiers coming back. Afghani marksmanship is still more of the "spray and pray" variety, unless you get a sniper team engaging you.

500+ meters is excessive range for their weapons, and hitting anything at that range is more a matter of luck, our soldiers are trained in deliberate fire (single aimed shots) and are more effective. Also current doctrine having snipers being a battalion asset leaves platoons shorted when having to engage at long distance, including some long guns at the platoon level is probably the right call for Afghanistan, and we'll probably start doing that once the lessons are fully digested, if it isn't already being done.

Saying WW1 soldiers were better equipped to handle Afghanistan is also something I disagree with. Sure they had long rifles (what else were you going to arm them with at that time?) but they didn't have our comms/training/air support/mobility/etc...

30 posted on 04/03/2010 1:33:39 PM PDT by world weary
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To: neverdem

They just need longer barreled m16s with scope. The 556 nato round is just fine. Little more accuracy, little more velocity...that’s all that’s needed.

I’ve been saying for years they need to ditch brass cases and upgrade to high strength aluminum alloy cases and then boost up chamber pressures.

Then upgrade the recoil system with an oil filled system for really smooth shooting. Better compensators on the end of the muzzle would help too.

Bigger bullets is the wrong way to go, imo. More speed is the best solution.

BTW, 556 shoots further than 762. This article is not entirely honest.


31 posted on 04/03/2010 1:34:14 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Thane_Banquo

762x39 is way easier to stop with a vest than 556nato. 556nato is just fine. it’s the dam short carbine rifles that suck.


32 posted on 04/03/2010 1:35:49 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: gunnut

We’ll go broke fighting wars like that. a bullet is way cheaper than a plane carrying a missile.


33 posted on 04/03/2010 1:37:25 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Frantzie

I like this choice. in 308?


34 posted on 04/03/2010 1:38:13 PM PDT by winodog (We've got more people voting for a living than we do working for a living.")
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To: neverdem
Knowing Obama, he's supplied the troops with weapons according to his desire not to allow them to protect themselves. His ROEs reflect the same mindset.


35 posted on 04/03/2010 1:38:46 PM PDT by 444Flyer (Obama's long war against America is in progress.)
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To: GreyFriar

It’s still made. It only tumbles when shot from longer barreled rifles. No tumbling when shot from a m4 carbine.


36 posted on 04/03/2010 1:39:09 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: neverdem

Drop a BIG BOMB and quit using small arms.

This war should have been over a long time ago.

Just drop a bomb and let God sort it out.

Does anyone else wonder if 0bama doesn’t get some kind of perverse pleasure from the deaths of our Military? Maybe it’s just me.


37 posted on 04/03/2010 1:41:06 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (SPEAK UP REPUBLICANS, WE CAN'T HEAR YOU YET! IMPEACH OBAMA!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Its not the Ak’s so much as the 7.62 round on a belt fed machine gun mounted on a tripod up high... lots of punch from a distance

accuracy by volume


38 posted on 04/03/2010 1:43:52 PM PDT by 1st I.D Vet
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To: stylin19a

Taiwan, you mean?


39 posted on 04/03/2010 1:44:10 PM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: neverdem
Unlike in Iraq, where most shooting took place at relatively short range in urban neighborhoods, U.S. troops in Afghanistan are more often attacked from high ground with light machine guns and mortars from well beyond 300 meters...

Is it any wonder why GWB opted for a change of venue in the War on Terror?

40 posted on 04/03/2010 1:44:33 PM PDT by infidel29 (baracKARL obaMARX)
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