Posted on 12/11/2010 7:36:07 AM PST by Ladycalif
I definitely think they ALL orchestrated the “turning Bernie in” scenario.
IIRC, in addition tohis munificent compensation, he had taken $50+million in “loans” from the firm. Why Loans? Simple..you don’t have to pay income taxes on the loans.. The trustee is now the receiver of the loans, and was suing to get the funds back. Also, one of Bernie’s former secretaries is now in jail. She can’t make her $5 mill bail becase the feds won’t allow her to use the $$$ she made with Madoff for bail.
Irving Picard sues seven world banks as Madoff deadline looms
* Michael Rothfeld
* From: The Wall Street Journal
* December 09, 2010
(snip)
In a second lawsuit, Mr Picard and Mr Nisselson are seeking $US274,000 allegedly transferred by Bernard and Ruth Madoff to Mark Madoff’s children and his current and former wives. That suit names Mark Madoff, his wife, Stephanie Morgan, and their minor child, identified as A.V.M.; and Susan Elkin, Mark Madoff’s ex-wife, their son Daniel Madoff and daughter, identified as K.M.
A spokesman for Mark and Andrew Madoff and their wives declined to comment on the lawsuits against their children. Ms Elkin declined to comment.
Peter, Mark and Andrew Madoff were also named today in the $US80m lawsuit filed in London against them and other former directors of Madoff Securities International Ltd. The suit was filed in Britain’s High Court of Justice Commercial Court by Mr Picard and Stephen J. Akers, a joint liquidator of the London business, Mr Picard said.
(snip)
Mr Picard and Mr Nisselson today also sued the Mark and Stephanie Madoff Foundation for $US2m it allegedly received from Bernard and Ruth Madoff’s bank account in December 2007. In yet another lawsuit, the Deborah and Andrew Madoff Foundation was sued for $US2m that Bernard Madoff allegedly wired to the organisation from a Lehman Brothers account.
Yes, and Mark bought a house in excess of $6 million dollars in 2008 [after his after was indicted]. Then sold it in disgust in 2010 for over $7 million.
What did he continue to spend so extravagantly after knowing the charges?
And he was recently exasperated that he could not get a job in the industry! Would you hire a Madoff?
Nice post. Thank you.
You remind me of Oprah’s big something.
Listen, man-—if talking smack about dead people makes you feel tough and holy, then knock yourself out.
I’m just trying to tell you it sounds bitter and self-righteous.
Rock on!
I agree with you completely.
This world is full of jerkoffs...and it’s the kids that always pay the price because of the jerkoffs... Damage to ourselves, well, that’s the way things go...but damage to kids BECAUSE of us? That’s unacceptable. Sick to my stomach thinking of it...
You are so right. I have a 2 yr old grandchild who is so smart and talks well. Just the thought that his toddler could possibly have found the hanging body leaves me speechless.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
the sins of the father are visited on the son...
such a sorry heritage for these people....
Thanks.
I have very clear memories of being very young...and I’m praying this little guy was nowhere near the scene of the suicide to view it...
Effing horrible. Just horrible.
Quick to judge, slow to reflect, ain’t we?!
What’s the difference, if you off yourself, or if you’re destroyed by others? If the latter, those others won’t “feel bad”, won’t have you on their conscience. I’ve seen both cases, maybe the suicides are braver, more decisive, I dunno, trying to decide for myself. The shrinks, the social workers do their best to keep you from killing yourself, but if you don’t, you’re nobody’s problem, die slowly in the gutter.
the sins of the father are visited on the son...
COLD
So many with motive, so little time.
Whenever I hear of a close relative of a prisoner convicted in a money theft, committing suicide,...I tend to associate the imprisoned person as having a link to outside funding in order to survive within the prison system.
Whether it is true of not, doesn’t really matter to the criminal mind seeking to take from those it perceives has ill-gotten gain.
Meanwhile, if he had been ‘gotten to’ by nefarious persons, they wouldn’t suicide him, until they received the information they sought.
Streetwise shady people had incentive to become involved with the son.
Meanwhile, the death occurs on an anniversary, which may have more significance in legal agendas than melancholy.
Current events revealed a week earlier a $6.4 billion lawsuit is filed on a scheme believed to have harvested some $65 billion, and within a week the court appointed trustee of the Madoff group tenders $625 million to cover all losses of the victims, and is accepted by the US Courts.
OK, let me get this straight,....a con man swipes $100 amongst a lottery like Ponzi scheme with one penny to dollar buy-ins, is discovered, then makes restitution by paying off $1 back to the Judicial system holding him accountable for his crimes?
Meanwhile, the person most likely to know where and how to control the remaining $99 turns up dead by suicide?
Yeah,.... right.
A number of problems here.
(1) Madoff did not "harvest" $65 billion. He claimed to have $65 billion in assets - but much of that $65 billion never existed: it was a fictional "return on investment" for money that had never actually been invested.
He probably collected something more like $25 billion and simply invented the rest. A good amount of that $25 billion was paid back to early investors in the Ponzi scheme as is usually the case, so the full amount missing and unaccounted for is something like $10 billion
(2) They way you write it, it seems as if Irving Picard, the court-appointed trustee, "tendered" $625 million. He did not. Carl Shapiro, a Madoff investor, signed over $625 million of funds to Picard to resolve the civil claims against Shapiro himself.
(3) You write that this $625 million is "to cover all losses of the victims" and that this is "accepted by the US courts" - which is not really. The government is still pursuing billions of dollars in claims and is not claiming that this money covers all the losses or that it has accepted this payment as coverage for all the losses.
What has happened is that the government has agreed that Shapiro - by paying about 10% of the total amount sought from the Madoff crew by the government - has satisfied his personal civil liability.
This does not mean that the investigation is closed or that there is no more money to find or that other early investors will be able to avoid disgorging their profits.
Thanks. I was mistaken.
Thank you! I am surprised it took that long for that connection to be made.
While it is VERY possible the son took his own life due to whatever personal demons/travails/fears/realities etc that were weighing down on his dome, there is also a VERY real possibility that some gents who were not too pleased with daddy-dearest paid him a visit. Hanging oneself with a dog collar, on the anniversary of the day of discovery? Again, very possible that it is a straight up simple suicide (and the cops stated it was so), but it could also be very possible that it was something more nefarious (and it is not hard to make something look like a suicide, ranging from something that even forensics couldn't tell apart from a real suicide, to one of those crazy Eastern European suicides where someone shoots themselves several times in the back of the noggin' before deciding to chop themselves up for good measure - all suicides).
Again, this may very well be what the police officers state it was. However, if I was a member of the Madoff family I would have been quite concerned about some of the alleged characters that Madoff managed money for. I have worked in fund management, and I know there are some types that are best not screwed (losing money is one thing, screwing them is another thing). To such characters (the alleged connection to some Mafiya -Russian Mafia - types), you have to add to the Madoff troubles 'normal' (as in non criminal wealth) wealthy folk who nonetheless were not exactly enthused by Madoff's disappearing tricks.
Bottomline - while this was probably (?) a suicide, there is definitely a baker's dozen of individuals (most probably more) who have the motivation to see old man Madoff suffer pain and loss, and who have the means to bring this about. Hanging a son with a dog's leash is one way to bring that about.
Looking at the amount of money Madoff was managing, there is no way you can have such quanta of funds without some of the investors being the type of people one really should not muck about with, to put it mildly. It is like a swimming pool versus a large pond vs a small lake vs the ocean ...the larger the body of water the more likely it is to have predators, and in the same vein, the larger the body of water the more likely it is that THOSE predators will be larger and more capable of being an existential threat to a lifeform larger than a minnow. His fund size was large, hence he must have had everything from simple Pikes all the way to Makos and Giant Squid. Even if this is not a hit you can rest assured that sooner or later someone will come with a message for Madoff delivered through his family. This is why integrity is very important in Finance ...it is not just for the Fund and investors, it is also important for your OWN wellbeing (and I do not just mean peace of mind). Mess with the wrong set of people, or with someone with nothing to lose, and it may not be the healthiest of occupations. Particularly in this case, when the victims mostly believe that the sons also knew of the scam (which, in my opinion, is a correct assumption ....no way the whole operation was a one-person gig). Thus, in their eyes, the sons are as guilty as their father. Which is not safe for them at all. Was this a suicide? Well, yes ....it's just I would bet it was an 'assisted' suicide, and not just that but also a message. Also note that this is not the first interesting death...the first 'interesting' death was that of a chap called Jeffrey Picower who was found dead at the bottom of his pool. I'm sure he must have temporarily forgotten how to swim. Then there is some European aristrocrat who slit his wrists in a bathtub (although that one may be a legit suicide).
As an aside, Madoff is probably fortunate he is in prison. As for his family - I hope they remain cognizant of their safety and security.
Thank you! I am surprised it took that long for that connection to be made.
While it is VERY possible the son took his own life due to whatever personal demons/travails/fears/realities etc that were weighing down on his dome, there is also a VERY real possibility that some gents who were not too pleased with daddy-dearest paid him a visit. Hanging oneself with a dog collar, on the anniversary of the day of discovery? Again, very possible that it is a straight up simple suicide (and the cops stated it was so), but it could also be very possible that it was something more nefarious (and it is not hard to make something look like a suicide, ranging from something that even forensics couldn't tell apart from a real suicide, to one of those crazy Eastern European suicides where someone shoots themselves several times in the back of the noggin' before deciding to chop themselves up for good measure - all suicides).
Again, this may very well be what the police officers state it was. However, if I was a member of the Madoff family I would have been quite concerned about some of the alleged characters that Madoff managed money for. I have worked in fund management, and I know there are some types that are best not screwed (losing money is one thing, screwing them is another thing). To such characters (the alleged connection to some Mafiya -Russian Mafia - types), you have to add to the Madoff troubles 'normal' (as in non criminal wealth) wealthy folk who nonetheless were not exactly enthused by Madoff's disappearing tricks.
Bottomline - while this was probably (?) a suicide, there is definitely a baker's dozen of individuals (most probably more) who have the motivation to see old man Madoff suffer pain and loss, and who have the means to bring this about. Hanging a son with a dog's leash is one way to bring that about.
Looking at the amount of money Madoff was managing, there is no way you can have such quanta of funds without some of the investors being the type of people one really should not muck about with, to put it mildly. It is like a swimming pool versus a large pond vs a small lake vs the ocean ...the larger the body of water the more likely it is to have predators, and in the same vein, the larger the body of water the more likely it is that THOSE predators will be larger and more capable of being an existential threat to a lifeform larger than a minnow. His fund size was large, hence he must have had everything from simple Pikes all the way to Makos and Giant Squid. Even if this is not a hit you can rest assured that sooner or later someone will come with a message for Madoff delivered through his family. This is why integrity is very important in Finance ...it is not just for the Fund and investors, it is also important for your OWN wellbeing (and I do not just mean peace of mind). Mess with the wrong set of people, or with someone with nothing to lose, and it may not be the healthiest of occupations. Particularly in this case, when the victims mostly believe that the sons also knew of the scam (which, in my opinion, is a correct assumption ....no way the whole operation was a one-person gig). Thus, in their eyes, the sons are as guilty as their father. Which is not safe for them at all. Was this a suicide? Well, yes ....it's just I would bet it was an 'assisted' suicide, and not just that but also a message. Also note that this is not the first interesting death...the first 'interesting' death was that of a chap called Jeffrey Picower who was found dead at the bottom of his pool. I'm sure he must have temporarily forgotten how to swim. Then there is some European aristrocrat who slit his wrists in a bathtub (although that one may be a legit suicide).
As an aside, Madoff is probably fortunate he is in prison. As for his family - I hope they remain cognizant of their safety and security.
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