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Shroud of Turin is a fake created by famous master Giotto, claims Italian art expert
Daily Mail ^ | 06/08/2011

Posted on 06/08/2011 6:02:16 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

The Shroud of Turin was made by medieval artist Giotto, it was claimed yesterday.

The 14ft length of fabric, said to be the burial cloth of Christ, bears a faint image of a man and appears to be stained by blood.

However carbon-dating tests have suggested it was produced between 1260 and 1390.

Now Italian art expert Luciano Buso has suggested that the original cloth deteriorated and Giotto was asked to make a copy.

After months of careful examination of photographs of the Shroud - the relic is kept locked away and not available to be viewed unless on special occasions - Luciano Buso has come up with an idea worthy of a Da Vinci Code thriller.

He says that several veiled appearances of the number 15, hidden in the fabric by the artist, indicate Giotto created the Shroud in 1315 - and that it is a copy of the original which had been damaged and was then lost over the centuries. Giotto was perhaps the best known artist of his time and was made famous for his decoration of the Scrovegni Chapel in Padua, the fresco that depicts the life of the Virgin Mary and Christ. Mr Buso insists that 700 years ago it was common practice for artists to insert partial dates into their works so as to guarantee their authenticity and it was known only to a handful of people so as to avoid forgeries. His claims, which form part of a new book he has written, would coincide with 1980's carbon dating - which has been dismissed by the Church - and which puts the Shroud's origins in the early 14th century.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: giotto; medievalhoax; shroud; shroudofturin; sudariumofoviedo; veronicaveil
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To: Elendur

What in the world are you talking about? Sex slaves, Divinc code,??????


61 posted on 06/08/2011 8:36:27 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: SeekAndFind; All

The “Art Expert” is a poser.

He lacks any expertise in the necessary fields of science to make such a call.


62 posted on 06/08/2011 8:50:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Going 'EGYPT' - 2012!)
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To: khnyny

>> “There was an incredible show recently on the History Channel (will try to link) that had Hollywood professional artisans/special effects artists re-create the face of Jesus from the Shroud” <<

.
No great feat.

Take a digital photo, use corel or adobe to flip from negative to positive.

Done.


63 posted on 06/08/2011 8:56:31 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Going 'EGYPT' - 2012!)
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To: count-your-change

You are gullible if you accept such a simplistic dismissal.


64 posted on 06/08/2011 8:59:16 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Going 'EGYPT' - 2012!)
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To: AuH2ORepublican

Thanks for the clarification.


65 posted on 06/08/2011 9:05:42 PM PDT by CedarDave (I agree with Obama's immigration comments in El Paso: We do need moats filled with alligators)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Not a bad fake, don’t you think? And it only took them 700 years to find out!


66 posted on 06/08/2011 9:43:17 PM PDT by giotto
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To: editor-surveyor; khnyny
That show was more than that. They wanted to try to gain a 3-D rendering of it. And it was more than just special effects guys as I recall, but scientists as well. I recall that they were amazed at how the 2-D images of the shroud had 3-D information “encoded” in it - indicating that it was originally a 3-D image. (Or something like that - it was a bit beyond me!).

As a Christian (and in the sciences), it doesn't matter to me if it's real or not. But I do like learning more about it, and am obviously biased to the many stories of “...as a scientist I was amazed...”

67 posted on 06/08/2011 10:05:33 PM PDT by 21twelve (Obama Recreating the New Deal: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2185147/posts)
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To: SeekAndFind

There are too many things about the Shroud that cannot be explained. It’s a miraculous impression.


68 posted on 06/08/2011 10:16:08 PM PDT by Melian ("I can't spare this [wo]man; [s]he fights!" (Apologies to Abe Lincoln) Go, Sarah!)
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To: editor-surveyor

If it’s important to you to have your relics, well then, have them but you’re in no position to call anyone “gullible” for not buying into something got up to impress the locals.


69 posted on 06/08/2011 10:25:07 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
So the process is not so mysterious that no one could have done it. Of course that doesn't mean the one is false but a unique process is no longer an argument in it's favor.

That 2009 attempt was laughable. It met so few of the criteria to "duplicate the Shroud" that it could not even be submitted to peer review because there was NOTHING to peer review! His "duplicate" was only superficially similar to the Shroud but it DID have pigments, the image was NOT made up in the same way that the Shroud's image is made of a nanometers thin coating of caramel like coating of Starch fraction only on the surface of the fibers left over from the fullering processing. This scientist's image soaked into the fibers, penetrated and stained the fibers, and left residues, that left telltale elemental signatures that stood out like red flags under even mild magnification, where the true Shroud shows none down to the electron microscopy level. Sorry... It was a twaddle report that went nowhere in the scientific community. It had legs only in the popular press who had no clue about peer review!

70 posted on 06/08/2011 11:13:20 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping!


71 posted on 06/08/2011 11:24:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Wpin
The Shroud is now immersed in a bath of some chemical to protect it from decaying more. This chemical bath evidently prohibits any accurate carbon testing now. It really is not important. The Shroud has been proven authentic...the question is not is it real or fake, but is it Jesus or not. There is not way it was created in the middle ages as the technology for knowing the different light wave frequencies that have been used to prove it’s authenticity were known back then...the image is also contains 3 dimensional information...that precludes it from being any kind of painting, dyeing, etc.

I disagree that it's been "proven authentic". It has not been falsified is the best we can say right now. No one can prove it's a fraud, forgery, fake, or a work of art. We don't know.

The evidence leans heavily toward it being of first century provenance and that at sometime in it's existence it was in an area in a 50 mile radius around Jerusalem, had plants that were native to that area placed on it, and had the portion of it that was the backside of the dorsal image (and on the front of the cloth under the feet of the image) laid on a surface that had stone dust from Travertine Aragonite that is unique to quarries to the east of Jerusalem and consistent with that found in the traditional sites associated with Christ's tomb.

72 posted on 06/08/2011 11:28:23 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Swordmaker; Wpin
I disagree that it's been "proven authentic". It has not been falsified is the best we can say right now. No one can prove it's a fraud, forgery, fake, or a work of art. We don't know.

I'd go a bit further than that, inasmuch as there are a number of features present in this artefact which are consistent with the genuine article.

1) Wet-bench and spectrographic analysis does not show either quantity of or distribution of any known paint pigments in sufficient quantity to have created the image.

2) Details of the body inconsistent with the best available knowledge / belief at the time of a forger, but consistent with what we know now (placement of holes in wrists; inward curving of thumbs).

3) Demonstrated presence of breakdown products of blood -- blood type is thought to match Sudarium, as well as the shape of some of the stains; and the Sudarium has a separate documnented history and provenance. (How would that be faked?)

4) Presence of pollen and other plant materials, some of which are from plants in the vicinity of Jerusalem, and which blossom / release pollen only at the same time of year as Good Friday / Easter / Passover.

5) 3-D imaging inherent in the shroud's image, which was unknown at the time of the supposed forging.

6) The image is a photographic negative, which was unknown at the time of the supposed forging.

7) The image is the result of a Maillard reaction with the layers of the threads of the shroud, consistent with outgassing from a corpse; and inconsistent with painting. The image has survived a number of things done to the Shroud during its long history, including boiling in oil.

8) The "debunking" C-14 testing took a number of samples in an area where the Shroud had been "patched" (invisible French re-weaving) with newer cloth; the samples traversed a section of the Shroud where the relative proportion of old-to-new fiber changed from one sample to the next. This proportion was picked up by variations in the C-14 estimate of the age of each sample. Further tests on other parts of the Shroud are consistent with it being from the time of Christ, within experimental error.

9) The type of fabric and the method of weaving used are both consistent with the Shroud's authenticity as an artifact from ancient Israel.

These factors are all physically independent and they are all present simultaneously in the original object: they are not mere "suppositions."

Occam's razor suggests that the simplest explanation is the true one: whatever the mechanism for the formation of the image (including "as yet unknown"), the Shroud dates from the time of Christ and was really in close proximity to the bleeding body of a crucified person.

Cheers!

73 posted on 06/08/2011 11:58:26 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: count-your-change
That's assuming the shroud is what it purports to be. That certainly hasn't been established.

If one is trying to prove an existing historical object is a fraud by creating one with known technology from the period, your creation had better exactly match the existing object in all details to make your case, not ignore unique characteristics of the original and NOT just hit superficial similarities! This "reproduction" failed on all points. . . And even the superficial similarities were poor. Regardless of "what it purports to be" the "reproduction" did not prove anything about the original because it DID NOT MATCH IN ANY PARTICULAR THE ORIGINAL, because the "scientist chose to ignore anything that did not fit his copy!! He ignored ALL the prior peer reviewed science that showed what the image is composed of in favor of a residue based pigment model... he ignored the Micro-xrayspectrometry and Micromassspectrometry studies that measured even the residue left even from the vinyl sample collection baggies the threads were placed in that found NO PIGMENT on the shroud and more, no significant elemental variation between image and non-image areas of the Shroud, except in the blood stains,

It's like claiming a photographic copy of the Mona Lisa, that really looks like Da Vinci's original, PROVES the original is a fake because the copy looks like the original! Let's ignore the fact the photo isn't an oil painting, isn't painted on a wooden panel, and has no texture... But from thirty feet away they both look the same, so the original MUST have been a fraud made by photography! See the problem?

74 posted on 06/09/2011 12:14:59 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: grey_whiskers
I'd go a bit further than that, inasmuch as there are a number of features present in this artefact which are consistent with the genuine article.

I agree with everything you posted. . . In fact, I think I posted all of those facts. ;^)> However none of that changes what I said... They don't PROVE authenticity. As I said, the Shroud has not been falsified and the preponderance of the evidence leans heavily to it being the real thing. I just don't think that science can take that final step to certainty. I BELIEVE it is Jesus' Shroud. I can't PROVE it. I am a user of Occam's razor, too, but this one can't be shaved; too many people think the simple solution is fraud!

Me? I think that's the complicated, convoluted, most miraculous solution. It requires the belief that an unsung polymath genius existed in medieval Europe who developed a scholarship of ancient Roman crucifixion practices, Jewish burial techniques and culture, knew about palynography, 3D terrain mapping, the need to seed his creation with Travertine Aragonite to fool 21st century scientists, develop an entirely new artistic technique using melanoids at the nanometer application level, a method of applying them after placing real human blood stains that come from distressed body exudated blood with separated sera... I find THAT to be so much more miraculous than that a known miracle worker might have left behind an artifact with strange attributes!

75 posted on 06/09/2011 12:47:33 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: RaceBannon

Sorry, Race, my FRiend.....wrong on this one; big time. Nothing about “idolatry” and certainly not a “phony”. If you’d like to discuss it offline, let me know.


76 posted on 06/09/2011 1:53:29 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Swordmaker
“It's like claiming a photographic copy of the Mona Lisa, that really looks like Da Vinci’s original, PROVES the original is a fake because the copy looks like the original!”

Well, there is 700 years between the two with all the attendant wear and tear. The so-called original has a reliable history from the 13th. cen. and so far no one ha shown otherwise.

77 posted on 06/09/2011 3:46:19 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Swordmaker
Yes, of course you posted them: but in this context, they are far more powerful when juxtaposed.

I've done a couple of similar lists myself, too, you know.

I just saved you the trouble, given the late hour. :-)

Cheers!

78 posted on 06/09/2011 4:19:55 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: RightOnline

no need to speak in private, the adoration of relics is idolatry, people even have adorations of the HOLY FORESKIN, and that is NOT a joke

and you can guess whose it is supposed to be

From birth to death, these relics are an abomination and idolatry.


79 posted on 06/09/2011 4:34:29 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Ron Paul is to the Constitution what Fred Phelps is to the Bible.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Carbon-dating tests were conducted on the cloth in 1988 and suggested it was from between 1260 and 1390, other scientists have since claimed that contamination over the ages, from water damage and fire, were not taken sufficiently into account and could have distorted the results.

And that part of the cloth taken for testing had reweaving of Middle Ages cloth, thus skewing the C14 results.
80 posted on 06/09/2011 5:58:20 AM PDT by aruanan
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