Posted on 08/14/2011 11:58:36 AM PDT by skeptoid
It's the most expensive fighter jet ever built. Yet the F-22 Raptor has never seen a day of combat, and its future is clouded by a government safety investigation that has grounded the jet for months. The fleet of 158 F-22s, including those in Alaska, has been sidelined since May 3 after more than a dozen incidents in which oxygen was cut off to pilots, making them woozy. The malfunction is suspected of contributing to at least one fatal accident, in Alaska. At an estimated cost of $412 million each, the F-22s amount to about $65 billion sitting on the tarmac. The grounding is the latest dark chapter for an aircraft plagued by problems and whose need was called into question even before its first test flight.
(Excerpt) Read more at adn.com ...
I don’t know about current man-hour rates, perhaps a little perspective is in order. In a former life I flew SH-2F’s, we had older H-2’s, in fact one had a BUNO beginning in 139. Our average was in the 40-50 man hour range, they were old and tired and required significant maintenance. H-53’s during that time had similar numbers even though they were considerably bigger. As an aside, there was a saying in Marine H-46 squadrons that when you add 4 H-53’s for a cruise you double your maintenance. The idea with new aircraft is to get lower cost of ownership with a lower man hour rate. If this is true of the F-22, that is not good.
... and probably never will.
To me, it boils down to this: Strength and resolve deter aggression, while weakness and indecision invites it.
Indeed.
10 Abrams tanks would destroy 500 Sherman tanks in short order.
I'm sure a few are still classified...
Yep, and the Tiger had at least a 10-1 kill ratio over the Sherman. If you were driving a Sherman or part of the crew you spent every moment avoiding Tigers. YOU HAD NO CHANCE.
The cost of these aircraft are NOT the issue.
Over the life of these aircraft we will spend a hundred times their cost in maintenance, fuel and manpower. The platform itself is cheap.
I had the privilege and opportunity to spend several hours with a recently retired Air Force pilot. He had 28 years in (USMC, Air Force and ANG) and retired in protest over the recent homosexuality issues in the military.
When I visited him, he had on his wall about every plaque and certificate you could imagine that could be bestowed on a fighter pilot. Top Gun school, you name it. He had extensive combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. He said had flown everything in the inventory from A-4 Skyhawks to the F-15 (Mostly F-18 and F-16) but not the F-22.
When I asked him if he had ever flown against F-22's, and if so, what was it like, he looked at me and said:
"Flying against the F-22 was like being a baby seal."
This guy was, from all accounts, Sierra Hotel as a fighter pilot, and he said that not only was it not even close to being close, but "Any pilot not flying an F-22 who tells you he waxed an F-22 is simply full of crap."
A Tiger would be toast against an Abrams. The cost is worth it, if the end product is superior.
That says it all... thanks
On a air combat wargame website, some of the designers were trying to come up with a way of simulating the F-22 in their game. They came up with a humorous table for the F-22's opponent to use:
80% chance: you are shot down and have no idea why.
10% chance: you see the F-22 immediately before you are shot dow.
10% chance: you see the F-22 and eject before you are shot down.
This guy was, from all accounts, Sierra Hotel as a fighter pilot, and he said that not only was it not even close to being close, but "Any pilot not flying an F-22 who tells you he waxed an F-22 is simply full of crap."
I've heard there was one simulated battle flown by Air Force pilots where some F-15s or F-16s won against the F-22, but it was a set up lopsided battle to show how bad things would have to be for the F-22 to lose. If I remember the story, the F-22 wasn't allowed to have any AWACS support and was outnumbered at least 6-1, and the other planes came in from above and behind and even then it was still a very close battle.
only reason I know about them is that they advertise in Hot Rod magazine & Machine Design magazine.
So, the Russian PAK-FA and the Chinese J-20 is going to fly circles around us?
Do the dorks who is against military spending it is better to maintain a strong military that building the military from the bottom like we did in WWII after we gutted our military.. Do these dorks realize that technology tends to improve over time? Do these dorks realize that it is very expensive when you build a new plane from start??
One only has to look at how many years went by before the F-15, -16, -18 and A-10s first saw combat.
It’s expensive Yes, but the point is it’s so effective as a weapons system that no one will come up to challenge it for many years to come, ergo we win!
Tony Stark: “Is it better to be feared or respected ? I say, is it too much to ask for both ?...They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only need to fire once. That’s how dad did it, that’s how America does it, and it’s worked out pretty well so far.”
The F-22 can be defeated quite handily. You just need a CINC inclined to establish whatever ROI would best sacrifice them. 412 million each is a lot of Keynesian stimulus
ROI=ROE
True and true. But an enemy who sees you have the means and the will to defend yourself and your interests is less likely to attack you or your interests.
Probably the only thing that kept the Russians and Chinese at bay during the Cold War.
Also, you don’t have the issue of WWII where it took a long time for us to build our forces up to the point we could go on the offensive in a meaningful way. During that time, a lot of good men lost their lives trying to keep the enemy at bay while we built up.
Heh, reminds me of a game I was playing once (Warbirds) and you would killed as soon as you sat in your cockpit. Turns out there was a guy who parked his B-25 Mitchell (the one with the 75mm cannon) on the runway right behind where new planes would regenerate. As soon as they appeared in front of him, he would just pull the trigger and obliterate them. It took me a while to figure it out.
I am sure an F22 could get shot down, no weapon system is infallible or invincible, and 50% of the F-22 pilots have to graduate in the lower half of their F-22 class...
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