Posted on 09/07/2011 9:00:11 AM PDT by AT7Saluki
... We are educated professionals who work with kids every day and often see your child in a different light than you do. If we give you advice, don't fight it. Take it, and digest it in the same way you would consider advice from a doctor or lawyer. I have become used to some parents who just don't want to hear anything negative about their child, but sometimes if you're willing to take early warning advice to heart, it can help you head off an issue that could become much greater in the future.
Trust us. At times when I tell parents that their child has been a behavior problem, I can almost see the hairs rise on their backs. They are ready to fight and defend their child, and it is exhausting...
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Both.
8 years of Catholic School. Tested for the LSAT and found out the most Holy, but not so good at math, Catholic School mailed in the math part to the kids. I got a good, moral and religious education. It was worth it to go.
However, they COMPLETELY whiffed at the math bit. I taught myself about three years of stuff I missed and ended up scoring well on the SAT.
Add to that most of the kids going into public high school with me from the local junior high had already passed Algebra. We didn’t offer it, and my janitor father and stoned-out mother wouldn’t have thought to even ask? My Dad is extremely bright, but his upbringing was done on his own.
So I’m now in HS, in Algebra with sophomores, juniors, and seniors too stupid to pass it in 7th or 8th grade, whilst my peers were off to Geometry, and ended up taking Calculus and passing it before they graduated.
I went to another government school after that (USCGA) and then found out our particular government HS didn’t offer AP classes. Most of my engineering classmates passed a year’s worth of gut classes and basic math courses and were off to multivariable calc and diffy q.
I caught up by overloading at the government college.
Throughout my HS and college bit I ran into one amazing master teacher after another, especially in math, but definitely in English. Our English 2 Advanced teacher insisted we draw and support our own conclusions on everything. He took the opposite side of every argument and expected you to win. If you didn’t, he’d show you why you could have, then insist you take the other side and defend it. He taught me how to challenge every assumption, and as a result, he taught me how questioning the basic tenets of my faith has made me a stronger Christian.
So, in my experience, it’s almost never the institution that delivers the goods to the student. Each teacher is either effective or isn’t, and much of that depends on how each student learns most effectively.
Most accurate thing I can say about any of my teachers goes something like:
“For me, this teacher was able/unable to effectively impart the curriculum they intended to impart to me.”
I can’t even make a blanket statement that some teachers are ‘excellent’, because obviously some kids leave their classroom not getting it. All I can proclaim is that ‘for me and me alone’ this teacher was effective, etc.
Nothing pisses me off more than an auto-didactive person to look down their nose at some experiential learner and say, “The textbook had everything you needed. How come you failed?” It’s arrogant.
Who is a bible believing LDS member? You? If you are what do they teach regarding education?
Not me.
I made an assumption, since you asserted that an LDS community would have a volunteer school set up in less than a week. I assumed you had inside knowledge on that bit.
I graduated from Catholic School, so my experience there indicated that exposure to religious content had no bearing on an ability to teach a student how to reason, in particular. I have to believe that some godless sort has been taught an ability to reason without having been exposed to religious education. I know you can’t be saved without faith. At bottom, its a requirement. Reason helps form faith, but there’s still a leap.
I can not defend a strawman of your creation. I did not say that children in government schools did not think and reason.
I did say that while in the godless government school and while to at home assignment they **must** reason in a godless manner. They **must** if they are to cooperate with the godless worldview in the classroom.
No good teacher would force a religiously abhorrent religious worldview ( atheistic or God-centered) on a child and his family.
Good teachers would object to forcing a taxpayer to pay for the government promotion of this religiously non-neutral godless worldview
Oh!....And it is an axiom.
Axiom: Education is either godless in its worldview or God-centered. Neither is religiously neutral. ALL schools must choose between those two worldviews. Government schools must choose as well. Since neither choice is religiously neutral, government schools should be abolished.
Axiom: A religiously, political, and culturally neutral education does not and can not exist.
This another of your strawman creations that I can not defend for you.
I have never stated that all children should be educated at home.
Yes,...Homeschooling is the most ideal and health way to rear a child to a secure and self-sufficient adulthood...BUT...There are parents that are too dumb, too sick, too lazy, too materialistic, too career oriented, too ill-educated, mentally ill, too poverty stricken, abusive, etc. to do an adequate job of homeschooling.
Some children will need institutionalization for their schooling. It is a shame but necessary. We need orphanages, too, but no one is claiming orphanages are the best way to rear a child.
Axiom: A religiously, political, and culturally neutral education does not and can not exist.
That too is an assertion. Again, you overreach. Certainly an elementary school education exists that can be religiously, culturally, and politically neutral. I’ve seen it done, and if I hadn’t, I can find lots of people who don’t take your assertion as a given - something not requiring proof, like ‘water is wet’.
Problem is, if we go back to the books public schools USED to use when they were first conceived, the Bible would be one of the primary texts used. Public schools used to be completely biased in favor or Christianity. That worked for me, probably better than what we’ve got right now.
I’m not sure, in any event, I’d be interested in my kid receiving a ‘politically, morally, or culturally neutral education’. Not sure where any of those elements fit into math, for example, but I do think we have a social contract - we agree to abide by the laws we pass, and as long as others do too, we are more or less safe. It’s when we devolve into ‘get what thou wilt, and might make the right’ that we have an inability to effectively pursue or happiness. We’re a nation of laws, not men, and there are political, cultural, and moral aspects to that particular theory of governance that can’t be avoided.
We pass this on to children in school. Should we stand mute on that in public classrooms? I don’t think we should, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
Here’s the thing. Your emotions are clouding your ability to form an argument, and every time you reply you are coming off more and more like a nutter. You’re wrapped around the ‘axiom’, for example. Don’t use words you don’t understand. Axioms are NARROW by nature. “Money is the mother’s milk of politics.” Many would agree this is a pithy observation, and others would leap to this being an axiom of politics. Then a bunch of whack jobs climb into jets and run them into buildings - and money had little if anything to do with it. Most would agree it changed political life here dramatically.
A true axiom would be ‘After 9/11, life in the US would never be the same again’ I could offer you evidence in support of that, by do I need to? That’s the test of a good axiom, “Do I need to offer you evidence?” If the answer for the RPP (Reasonably Prudent Person) is ‘no’, then its an axiom.
I know that every day in school, public school, my kids recite the following “One nation, under God, indivisible. . .” How completely godless is that? I go to court rooms that have “In God We Trust” somewhere therein. All the money in my wallet, and most of the coinage says, “In God We Trust”.
Are we trending toward some strange avoidance of the topic of whether there is a God or isn’t in schools? Definitely.
It’s an agenda by Atheists, which is ironic because Atheism is a belief system too. After all, saying “I’m not sure God exists” (Agnosticism) is a LOOOOONG way from claiming defniitively “There is NO GOD.” My standard retort is ‘Please, lay out your case so I can recover my Sundays’. Eventually, they end up realizing they have a faith life all their own, which for most professed Atheists is the very thing they sought to avoid in the first place.
“I don’t believe in God” is a very different thing than “There is no God”.
Every public school teacher in WA is pushing the world view that there is indeed a God, hence the Pledge, right? Do Atheists, Taoists, and Buddhists have a point here? They are all non-Theistic belief systems to one degree or another, and yet there the kids stand pledging One Nation Under God (not Satan, Buddha, etc.) every day of the school year.
You’re helping make their case. You really want godless in school? Keep yipping like some pissing Chihuahua about godless school teachers - the same ones I see in church on Sunday praying for my kids. You’ll lose the Pledge, “In God We Trust” on the money and the courts, the national day of prayer, etc. Right now they can read the Bible at school and pray to themselves. Is that intimidation? Is it a form of cultural bullying? Whine some more about godlessness in school and see what it buys you.
What may not be axiomatic, but close, is that morality is a hole in every person. You fill it with the right stuff, or someone will come along eventually and dump whatever they want in that hole, but eventually, that hole fills with something. I suspect, as a scouter, you’ve both seen and experienced this. I wouldn’t leave this to public schools to fill, same as you. This is the bit each parent needs to own but doesn’t.
The system's faults mirror those of life/humanity in general and, as such, have numerous remedies available to those who find their particular situation unacceptable.
Which, of course, makes it infinitely preferable to the current publically-funded version, from which none of us can escape.
I wasn't either.
That too is an assertion. Again, you overreach. (RinaseaofDs)sd
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Ok...Then what would a religiously neutral education look like? Please describe a typical day.
Is the education single sex or co-educational? I see a few religious, political, and cultural values that are stepped all over with this one.
Is the education single sexed or co-eduational. Oops! That's a political, cultural, and religious quagmire too!
Will school dances, theater, music programs, and sports be held or prohibited on Friday, Saturday or Sunday? And...Various religions and cultures have strong opinions about music, art, theater, dance, and sports ( especially if co-ed.)
Will the cafeteria have products that contain milk and meat, shellfish, caffeine products, pork, or vegan. Gee! Some very small children might be tempted to try delicious smelling and tasting foods that are prohibited by their religion and culture. Meat? Wow! That's a political minefield!
Were you aware that the plot of nearly every novel involves the breaking and keeping of one or more of the Ten Commandments? Will that be ignored or included ( it can't be both). In the teaching of reading and literature, who religious leaders will be quoted or ignored when attempting to analyze the conflict within the plot? Will all, none, or some of the world's various scriptures be ignored or included? ( Oops! That's not neutral!)
Since time and resources are finite, whose culture's history, art, music, theater, and literature will be covered in depth, merely touched upon, or totally ignored? Gee! You mean that all cultures can not be equally covered? What a non-neutral shame!
As for dress will the girls be forced to wear dresses and have sleeves in their blouses or will children of some religions be forced to view those who are wearing shorts, pants or bare arms? Will small children be tempted by and attracted to fashions that are in conflict with their culture and religion. And...Ask any feminist, she will tell you that fashion has non-neutral political implications.
Will the girls be allowed to cut their hair or the boys what hair styles will be allowed or disallowed? Either way, religious and cultural values are trampled.
Do you see now? It is impossible for government to deliver a religiously, politically, or culturally neutral education.
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Please think about this. Does this seem to be a good business strategy?
How long would the other paying parents put up with a school that refused to maintain discipline? In my mind's eye I see the unstoppable hemorrhaging of well behaved students fleeing the school taking their dollars with them!
Reasonable people will listen and instill discipline from home.
Unreasonable people will not listen and other steps must be taken at school.
The most unreasonable will take umbrage, sue the school, and/or take their money and child and go to a different school- one that will no doubt also see that their child lacks basic fundamental discipline that would lead to correct behavior.
Do you get it now? NO school is religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. NO government school is religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Another is axiomatic!
And...If a school is endemically unsafe, undisciplined, and ineffective, then few parents ( rational or irrational) would choose the school.
I will predict what will happen in the private market of education:
Schools who specialize in hard to control kids will open. Don't we have special camps and schools out in Utah and other Western States who **welcome** these difficult to manage kids?
And yes, after being thrown out of numerous private schools, or pulled out by parents who couldn't stand any criticism of their little darling- many end up in Military schools.
I have seen a private schools that had a ‘bad kid’ room where undisciplined kids with unreasonable parents are warehoused while others get educated.
What he asks is for parents to never question his view of the world. Yeah, that's unreasonable.
he is right about alot of things though.
Parents are starting to show up to meetings with lawyers.
Schools are getting sued much more often over discipline issues -especially if the kid loses his/her place on a sports team due to behavior.
Many parents will defend their kid - no matter what. They will accuse everyone involved of having bad motives, except their child of course.
A religiously, culturally, and politically neutral education looks like Algebra.
Again, who cares? Seriously, part of education is teaching students how they fit into the society. You don’t kill people so people won’t kill you.
Please, tell me you aren’t attempting to educate your children by yourself. You sound like a nutter.
This guy is apparently an amazing teacher, if he told me my 8 year old broke a toy and screamed and cried I wouldn't then turn to my child and ask “Did that really happen?”.
In other words - directly in front of the teacher - I would be suggesting that the teacher is lying to me - and that the child will establish the truth.
Does that seem reasonable to you?
I know that this post may illicit* more yelling, so I’ll leave it at that.
*elicit.
I hope you're not teaching grammar along with literature.
(Yes, I know I'm late to the party.)
Agree 100%. I think schools should be able to kick kids out.
“I know that sounds crazy, but principals all across the country are telling me that more and more lawyers are accompanying parents for school meetings dealing with their children.”
Could you imagine what the reaction would be if I showed up at work with a lawyer?
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