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Storied Vietnamese general is 100
The Spokesman Review ^ | 8/25/11 | Mike Ives

Posted on 10/02/2011 7:47:21 AM PDT by Borges

HANOI, Vietnam – Legendary Vietnamese Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap built his career on never backing down, even against seemingly impossible odds. Now, decades after ousting the French and later the Americans, he’s celebrating another major victory: his 100th birthday.

Giap is revered by Vietnamese second only to former President Ho Chi Minh. Together, they plotted gutsy campaigns from jungles and caves using ill-equipped guerrilla fighters to gain Vietnam’s independence, eventually leading to the end of French colonial rule throughout Indochina.

Two decades later, Giap’s northern Communist forces also wore down the U.S.

(Excerpt) Read more at spokesman.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: vietnam; vietnamwar
Vietnamese Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap shakes hands with former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara during a meeting in Hanoi, Vietnam, in 1995.
1 posted on 10/02/2011 7:47:26 AM PDT by Borges
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To: onedoug

ping


2 posted on 10/02/2011 7:50:33 AM PDT by stylecouncilor (Some minds are like soup in a poor restaurant...better left unstirred.-PG Wodehouse)
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To: Borges

Great. He can celebrate his 101st birthday in Hell.


3 posted on 10/02/2011 7:50:56 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Did John Kerry or Jane Fonda attend the party?


4 posted on 10/02/2011 7:55:27 AM PDT by umgud
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To: Borges

The good die young...


5 posted on 10/02/2011 7:56:32 AM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: stylecouncilor

¨Give my regards to General Giap.¨ —Nguyen Dung, Apr 2000


6 posted on 10/02/2011 7:58:51 AM PDT by onedoug (If)
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To: Borges

All together now.
Leftists love tyrants and mass murderers

Oh leftists love tyrants and mass murderers

So tyranny keeps marching on. duhn da duhn da duhn.


7 posted on 10/02/2011 8:00:35 AM PDT by barstoolblues (Neither teabagger nor tyrant)
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To: vladimir998

Mike Ives revisionist narrative doesn’t deal with the continous blunders and errors in judgeemnt contributed by the Americans who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Begining with JFK’s authorized assasination of Diem by the CIA or the defeat of the Viet Cong in the Tet offencive to the defunding of military supplies to SVN.


8 posted on 10/02/2011 8:03:04 AM PDT by mosesdapoet (To punish a province let it be ruled by a professor Fredrick The Great paraphrased)
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To: barstoolblues
Leftists love tyrants and mass murderers

Quiet please. Giap is a hero in Vietnam. The left is trying to make him a hero in America as well.

Who are you to get in their way? /s

9 posted on 10/02/2011 8:19:46 AM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I carrying this lantern? you ask. I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Borges
Giap was highly underestimated by the French and the US Generals. He was a very good leader and general, too bad he was one of theirs and didn't have to put up with a US House and Senate meddling with the tactical decisions. I had the benefit to spend a couple of days with a former French Foreign Legion paratrooper that was captured at Dien Bien Phu and in his opinion his leaders also let them down.
10 posted on 10/02/2011 8:20:04 AM PDT by vetvetdoug
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To: vetvetdoug
If a foreign army was in the U.S., would you ever stop fighting them? I can safely say I wouldn't.

Vietnam tried to get independence at Versailles after WWI and the West ignored them. They fought the Japanese when they invaded. They fought the French when they came back, and they fought the U.S. when they came in.

"Following World War I, under the name of Nguyễn Ái Quốc (“Nguyễn the Patriot”), he petitioned for recognition of the civil rights of the Vietnamese people in French Indochina to the Western powers at the Versailles peace talks, but was ignored. Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, Nguyễn petitioned U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for help to remove the French from Vietnam and replace them with a new, nationalist government. While he was unable to obtain consideration at Versailles, the failed effort had the effect of further radicalizing Nguyễn, while at the same time making him a national hero of the anti-colonial movement at home in Viet Nam."

Unable to find help in the West, he turned to the communist powers in the East. Our deference to European colonialism pushed him into the Soviet orbit to achieve his main goal, Vietnamese independence and the ejection of foreign armies.

11 posted on 10/02/2011 8:35:09 AM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: Borges

Good book for those interested:

This Time We Win: Revisiting the Tet Offensive.

We all have to make sure this never happens again.

No budget cuts for the DOD and CIA until there are no US enemies.


12 posted on 10/02/2011 8:38:32 AM PDT by huldah1776
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To: Borges

Can’t be! The CIA declared Giap dead in a bombing raid back in the early 1070s!

But then the CIA also declared CHE dead in the late 1960s. a few months later he popped up in Bolivia.


13 posted on 10/02/2011 8:47:55 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: Borges
Legendary Vietnamese Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap
Eff him. His military never beat us in a single major battle. We kicked their @ss every feckin' time we fought.
He's also one of many NV Pols and Gens who agree it was the anti-war scumbags marching in the US
who gave them the "courage" to fight on for another FIVE years after we crushed them during Tet.
Eff all of them ... including LBJ.
14 posted on 10/02/2011 8:48:44 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Borges

There was an interesting page on YAHOO (now removed) in which Giap stated that he was ready to give up the war after the disasterous TET offensive.

Then he heard Walter Cronkite’s “we can’t win this war” speech on CBS and decided to fight on.

I dispise Walter Cronkite for the traitor he is.


15 posted on 10/02/2011 8:52:30 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: mosesdapoet
Mike Ives totally ignore statement made by numerous North Vietnamese leaders, including General Giap himself, about how important, and successful, the political offensive they waged inside the US from the 1950’s through the mid 12970’s.

They repeatedly admitted that their military operations would have failed, castropically, if the peace movements in the US failed. The acts of Kennedy, Johnson, McNamara, et al were minor helps. Their main ally was the American left as found in the colleges and LMSM.

16 posted on 10/02/2011 9:10:49 AM PDT by Nip (TANSTAAFL and BOHICA)
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To: Gunslingr3
Unable to find help in the West, he turned to the communist powers in the East.

He was already communist but probably didn't want to be under the heel of Stalin or Mao.

Our deference to European colonialism pushed him into the Soviet orbit to achieve his main goal, Vietnamese independence and the ejection of foreign armies.

US policy was anti-colonial but more anti-communist.

17 posted on 10/02/2011 9:13:57 AM PDT by decimon
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To: Borges

Too bad Yamamoto, Hitler and Stalin didn’t make it to 100- American admirers coulda’ had cake or something


18 posted on 10/02/2011 9:21:25 AM PDT by silverleaf (Common sense is not so common - Voltaire)
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To: Borges

What a load of crap.

The “legendary” Giap had his butt handed to him in EVERY confrontation with the US military, which won that war decisively by 1973. What the “legend” got was So Vietnam HANDED to him by a demonRAT led Congress, as usual, turning its back on a desperate ally by 1975. Our “representatives” didn’t care about the people in So Vietnam, but they sure did care about seeing the war turn out for their “fellow travelers”.

And those infamous pyramids of skulls in Cambodia? A fitting monument to leftists everywhere- including the demonRATs in THIS country.


19 posted on 10/02/2011 9:21:48 AM PDT by 13Sisters76 ("It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. " Thos. Sowell)
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To: vetvetdoug

Giap had the advantage that only Communist leaders have - being able/willing to throw tens of thousands of your own troops into battle to be slaughtered by human wave and “mass mobilization” tactics. All for the good of the proletariat and the Party, of course!


20 posted on 10/02/2011 9:23:28 AM PDT by PGR88 (I'm so open-minded my brains fell out)
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To: 13Sisters76
And those infamous pyramids of skulls in Cambodia?

To be fair the "gooks" had little to do with Pol Pots regime.

21 posted on 10/02/2011 9:25:09 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Borges

Liberal’s like Ives have made a habit over recent decades out of glorifying mass murderers and baby killers like Giap. I would bet that Ives wasn’t even around in the mid sixties to watch Cronkite and Rather each evening feigning bullets flying and reporting ‘from the front’ (so to speak). Once in a while Cronkite and Rather accidentally got it right and reported on “the Viet-Cong” coming into villages in the middle of the night and just butchering old men, women and children and kidnapping any young men around and drafting them into serving the Cong. To keep it balanced and more accurate, Cronkite/Rather would report atrocities of the Cong and NVA infinitely less than they would be critical of American’s in country. Indeed, Cronkite/Rather’s anti-american drumbeat seemed woven into every single report from them!

And, let’s not forget Giap’s troops raping their own young women and small girls with impunity too. All this went on for decades with untold tens of thousands of his fellow countrymen just being massacred. So, when Giap’s allies “the Cong” weren’t doing this, Giap’s NVA (North Vietnamese Army) were torturing and murdering US prisoners of War in camps in the north and south. We now know indisputably that Giap’s and Ho’s so called ‘liberation war’ cost the lives of millions of Vietnamese, his fellow countrymen! Imagine one American General costing the lives of millions of Americans! Would we be calling him a hero?

So, no Mr. Ives, your attempt to portray Giap as a venerable old 100 year old man and “hero” show your ignorance, immaturity and genetic lefty bias. The man belongs on a stage (preferably a gallows) with Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao and Hussein. That ‘some’ Vietnamese regard him as a hero doesn’t mean they all do or even a majority do. The Germans regarded Hitler as a hero too. Some still do!

One thing is for sure though, some of us still alive would come closer to honoring Giap and Ho than we would LBJ, Rusk, McNamara and Westmoreland. LBJ’s famous quote “they” (his military officers) can’t attack an outhouse without my permission” pointedly reflects the condescending/ivy league/elitist attitude prevalent back then at the top echelon of civilian authority and that ended up needlessly costing tens of thousands of American lives, maimed tens of thousands of others and prolonged the war. One of them, Bobby Robert’s being a close personal childhood friend and dead at 18 years old from a bullet in the gut. I served my two years in Japan or likely would have ended up like Bobby.

I hope my post neutralizes to at least 1 degree among readers this erroneous and leftist portrayal of Giap by Ives.

And, Borges, thanks for posting as it gave me an opportunity to “VENT” on the Vietnam War in general and civilian authority at the top during that war in particular! Not, LOL, that anybody is going to read it on this dying post and because I made it too long!!!


22 posted on 10/02/2011 9:26:13 AM PDT by Cen-Tejas (it's the debt bomb stupid!)
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To: Borges

Big Deal my friend is 101 yrs and 3 months old,and didn’t kill anyone....that I know of...


23 posted on 10/02/2011 9:57:57 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Borges

The NVA did not wear down our military or force it out of vietnam. They did, however, wear down the american public, congress and the president. McNamara is responsible for a large share of our defeat.


24 posted on 10/02/2011 10:33:42 AM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: Scotsman will be Free
The Tet Offensive didn't do anything except kill off the VC. The big problem was the border areas and our self imposed no cross lines.
25 posted on 10/02/2011 10:40:53 AM PDT by Little Bill (Sorry)
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To: Cen-Tejas

I don’t even think Mussolini belongs in a group with those others.


26 posted on 10/02/2011 10:46:56 AM PDT by Borges
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To: Gunslingr3
If a foreign army was in the U.S., would you ever stop fighting them? I can safely say I wouldn't.

South Vietnam and North Vietname were sovereign nations after the French left. NV was waging a war of aggression on the SV, trying to impose its form of government. The situation between NV and SV was not a civil war. The Soviet Union facilitated the conflict. In hindsight, we never should have gotten involved but we did not invade Vietnam. We were helping our SV allies fight the agression from NV and the Soviet Union. Ironically, Vietname today has largely shed its communist ideology although it still uses the communist banner to describe its government.
27 posted on 10/02/2011 10:51:03 AM PDT by businessprofessor
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Here’s a couple of links about Cronkite’s involvement, and a reference to a book by VDH on the subject:

http://www.9thinfantrydivision.com/html/actualenemy.htm

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/07/walter_cronkite_vietnam_and_th_1.html

“The Meaning of Tet” by Victor Davis Hanson, American Heritage (2001) A historian argues that in Vietnam America’s cause was just, its arms effective, and its efforts undermined by critics back home— and that this is how things must work in a free society


28 posted on 10/02/2011 10:51:18 AM PDT by SuzyQue
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To: Borges
Vietnamese Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap shakes hands with former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ...

Yes, McNamara and Giap were great allies during that conflict. Giap never won a battle against the U.S. forces yet the Left still praises him as a great general. McNamara threw in the towel and LBJ tried his hand at being a field general, much like Hitler in WWII. The political leadership on both sides were Marxists.

29 posted on 10/02/2011 11:02:41 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: central_va; 13Sisters76

And those infamous pyramids of skulls in Cambodia?

***To be fair the “gooks” had little to do with Pol Pots regime.****

I remember when SVN fell. Then Cambodia within a few days. I also remember the University students in Kalifornia having candle light marches in favor of Pol Pot, Cambodia, and North Vietnam’s victories.


30 posted on 10/02/2011 11:08:13 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: Cen-Tejas

*** Once in a while Cronkite and Rather accidentally got it right and reported on “the Viet-Cong” coming into villages in the middle of the night and just butchering old men, women and children...***

I remember Paul Harvey reporting, around 1965, the VC came into a refugee center, lined up the people, gave them a lecture, and turned flame throwers on them.


31 posted on 10/02/2011 11:10:55 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: SuzyQue

***A historian argues that in Vietnam America’s cause was just...***

I wonder how many remember the fall of LAOS. When it fell, the US sent in the US military to seize the land on the Thai side of the border just in case the Laosians decided to cross the border into Thailand.


32 posted on 10/02/2011 11:15:11 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

You mean that we were protecting the Thais from the Laotians?

I suppose. I’m a little conflicted about that. I’m not an isolationist by any means, but drafting young Americans to go protect Thais from their neighbors, even in the context of a war on communism...well, I’m just a little conflicted.


33 posted on 10/02/2011 11:20:55 AM PDT by SuzyQue
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To: oh8eleven

Obama declared Osama dead in 2011.


34 posted on 10/02/2011 11:25:35 AM PDT by Soul of the South (When times are tough the tough get going.)
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To: SuzyQue

****You mean that we were protecting the Thais from the Laotians?***

Yes we did, from the COMMIE LAOSIANS.. This was around 1964 or 1965. We had been getting reports on the news from Laos about the commie guerillas taking and loosing the Plain of Jars many times.


35 posted on 10/02/2011 11:40:32 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare! NEW PHOTOS & PAINTINGS)
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To: businessprofessor
South Vietnam and North Vietname were sovereign nations after the French left. NV was waging a war of aggression on the SV, trying to impose its form of government. The situation between NV and SV was not a civil war.

No, they weren't. Please check the Geneva Agreements (1954): Final Declaration, Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary"

The North Vietnamese were waging a war of unification against a corrupt western puppet regime. They hated the Chinese, but they were more than willing to use their aid to expel foreign armies and influence.

36 posted on 10/02/2011 11:53:45 AM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: Gunslingr3

You have the situation reversed. NV was the corrupt regime waging war on SV. SV was not the aggressor. SV had corruption because of the military pressure from NV. NV waged a war of aggression and imposed a brutal totalitarian state. When Vietnam was divided, 800,000 to 1 million North Vietnamese, mainly Roman Catholics, sailed south as part of Operation Passage to Freedom due to a fear of religious persecution in the North.

The Vietnam situation is similar to the Korean situation. North Korea invaded South Korea with the backing of the Soviet Union and China. The Soviet Union and China (to some extent) were waging a proxy war against the freedom of South Koreans. North Korea had no right to invade the South Korea. North Vietnam had no right to invade South Vietnam.

I think our involvement in Vietnam was a mistake given the collapse of the Soviet Union and its evil intentions. However, there was no way in the 1960s to know about the eventual Soviet collapse. Regardless of our involvement, NV was the aggressor and the villian.


37 posted on 10/02/2011 1:20:35 PM PDT by businessprofessor
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

No, I understand that.


38 posted on 10/02/2011 1:28:35 PM PDT by SuzyQue
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To: central_va

I wasn’t referring to the “gooks”- I was talking about the American left.


39 posted on 10/02/2011 4:17:58 PM PDT by 13Sisters76 ("It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. " Thos. Sowell)
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To: businessprofessor
You have the situation reversed. NV was the corrupt regime waging war on SV. SV was not the aggressor.

I didn't say that NV wasn't corrupt, I said they were fighting a war of unification attempting to remove the latest vestiges of foreign influence. Diem's government was propped up by the U.S., and Diem refused to hold the reunification election stipulated by the Geneva Accords that established the 17th parallel DMZ.

North Vietnam had no right to invade South Vietnam.

It wasn't simply an invasion by the north. Plenty of Vietnamese in the south were opposed to Diem's corrupt, puppet regime, and the subsequent juntas that assassinated Diem.

Regardless of our involvement, NV was the aggressor and the villian.

If, subsequent to our successful overthrow of British colonial rule, the French had supported a corrupt, puppet government over the Southern states, would the Northern states and the indigenous population of the South that resisted said government be villains?

To understand the Vietnam War you have to keep foremost in your mind what was in the mind of the average Vietnamese, and that nationalism/patriotism, not communism. The 'aggressors' to them were the succession of foreign powers that sought to control Vietnam, each of which were resisted in turn by the Vietnamese until they finally had independence.

40 posted on 10/02/2011 6:15:45 PM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: Cen-Tejas

I read it all. Good post, my thoughts too, thank you!


41 posted on 10/02/2011 8:50:26 PM PDT by LZ_Bayonet ( I AM THE TEA PARTY LEADER !)
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To: 13Sisters76
And those infamous pyramids of skulls in Cambodia?

The irony was that it was the Vietnamese that wound up overthrowing Pol Pot.

42 posted on 10/02/2011 8:52:53 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
"McNamara threw in the towel."

He never let his fighter fully enter the ring, i.e. he declared North Vietnam off-limits to US land attacks (to interdict and, most importantly, keep NV troops in NV). I can see NV General Giap shaking his head and quietly laughing at the incredibile stupidity of the American leadership.

43 posted on 10/02/2011 8:58:47 PM PDT by LZ_Bayonet ( I AM THE TEA PARTY LEADER !)
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To: LZ_Bayonet
I can see NV General Giap shaking his head and quietly laughing at the incredibile stupidity of the American leadership.

IIRC he said he knew he would win because of the Democrats and the American media..

44 posted on 10/02/2011 11:05:46 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: dfwgator

That was always as much their intention as it was to own So Vietnam. The people did no better under them.


45 posted on 10/03/2011 6:10:31 AM PDT by 13Sisters76 ("It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. " Thos. Sowell)
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