Are Mormons Christian?

Townhall.com ^ | October 12, 2011 | Ken Connor

[Kaslin]

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell.

You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

C.S. Lewis's famous "trilemma" confronts those who affirm the moral teachings of Christianity while distancing themselves from Christ's more difficult declarations about His deity, man's sinfulness, and the narrowness of the path to salvation. Jesus' famous "Golden Rule," is enthusiastically embraced in postmodern society while his other teachings are widely rejected. Accustomed to defining their own reality, postmodernists pick and choose from Jesus' teachings as if He offered them some kind of spiritual smorgasbord. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is selected as a delicacy, while "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me" is rejected as distasteful.

The tension between benign Christian morality and the exclusivity of the claims of Christ recently came into play when Baptist Preacher Robert Jeffress - by way of expressing his support for Rick Perry's presidential candidacy - asserted that Mitt Romney is not a Christian and that Mormonism is a cult. In an interview with Anderson Cooper, Jeffress clarified his point, explaining that from a theological perspective, Mormonism is considered a cult because it is outside the historical tradition of Christianity, it recognizes a human being (Joseph Smith) and not God as it's founder, and it regards extra-Biblical texts (The Book of Mormon; The Pearl of Great Price) as being on equal footing with Holy Scripture.

For his part, Cooper seemed offended that Jeffress would presume to judge the claims of another when it comes to religious identity. If someone says they are a "Christian," then who is to say otherwise? If the Mormon Church says it is Christian, then that is their truth and no one has a right to refute it.

This gets back to Lewis's "trilemma," and the dissonance that occurs when society affirms Christ's moral teachings, but rejects his other claims. As Lewis points out, Christ did not leave this way open to us. He made very specific assertions about His nature and that of humanity which we either believe or not. Therefore, we cannot all call ourselves "Christian" unless we empty the word of its meaning.

The Nicene Creed is one of the oldest and most widely accepted distillations of what Christians believe:

We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is - seen and unseen. We believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten from the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one Being with the Father, through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit, He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered death and was buried. On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. We believe in one holy and catholic apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

This creed incorporates the historic tenets of the Christian faith.

Therefore, when an individual or group holds itself out as "Christian," it is a fair exercise to evaluate how their beliefs align with this historic affirmation. That's true whether Anderson Cooper likes it or not. Does Mormonism fit within the historic definition of Christianity or not? Do Mitt Romney's beliefs conform to what Christians over the centuries have affirmed or not? Does the word "Christian" have objective, propositional meaning or not? If it does, then isn't it fair to test the claims of those who call themselves "Christian" against those beliefs that have historically been associated with that religion?

Of course, we live in a free society and people can identify themselves however they choose, but merely saying something doesn't make it so. I can say I'm the Queen of England if it makes me feel good about myself, but this self-delusion won't carry any weight with those guarding the gates of Buckingham Palace.

Pastor Jeffress real sin in the eyes of Anderson Cooper may be that the Reverend deigned to mix religion with politics in an apparent attempt to create a political advantage. If that was the case, then Mr. Cooper's indignation may have been justified. Article VI of the United States Constitution provides that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." And long before our Constitution came into being, none other than Martin Luther declared, "I would rather be governed by a competent Turk than an incompetent Christian."

That said, the question remains, "Are Mormons Christian?" Since Mormons assert that they are, isn't this a fair subject of public debate? Since religious truth claims have eternal consequences, isn't it in the public interest to examine the merits of those claims? The election of a Mormon president will likely do more than any other single event to mainstream Mormonism into American life, with all of the consequences attendant thereto. That being the case, why should the claims of that religion be any more immune from scrutiny than those of any other religion?

America will be a poorer country when we reach the point where discussions about religion and our eternal destiny can no longer be part of the public dialogue.

[hocndoc]

Do you know how many “Silent women” Church of Christ would condemn me for preaching the Gospel to saved men?

I try to stick to the simple Gospel of sinners in need of salvation, a loving God Who desires that we all be saved and reconciled to Him so He convicts us with His Spirit, and gave His only Son as sacrifice in our place that we may choose to be reconciled to Him.

It’s correct to ask people who teach others about their doctrine. However, the non-believers revel in our differences and wallow in our debates as proof that there is no God.

I have to stick with these basics and try to teach all as the little children they are; as though they don’t know the basics and let the Holy Spirit work within them.

[svcw]

A vote for Romney is no different than a vote for BHO.

[newheart]

It is also not my place (nor yours) to judge his salvation.

So nowhere have I pretended to utter such a thing; hence, why the warning?

I should have added "or anyone" in the parens, my apologies. But here is a more general observation. Your posts raise very clear distinctions between Mormon-ism and Christianity. They track well with what I know of Mormon theology and history, much of which I have learned from Mormons themselves. You are commendably zealous for the faith. That said, at least by implication, there is a message that being a Mormon and being a Christian are mutually exclusive. I don't really think you have set yourself up as a judge of anyone else's salvation, but I can assure you, your posts are perceived that way.

Mormonism and Christianity are mutually exclusive doctrines, IMHO. But for an individual being a Christian and a Mormon is no less possible than being a sinner saved by grace and "working out [one's] salvation with fear and trembling."

[G Larry]

Now that you’ve clarified your power of perception, nothing else needs be said.

[newheart]

It's like confusing Joe Louis with Lewis Farrakhan.

LOL!

[svcw]

So tell me what are the differences. I would really like to know why you would pick Romney’s governance history over BHO’s.

[trisham]

Feel free to provide proof of this accusation, which I personally find outrageous and reprehensible.

[G Larry]

Romney has promissed to issue Obamacare waivers to all 50 state.
Romney knows how to shut down the regulatory oppression currently stiffling our econmy.
No I’m not falling for your “governance history” qualifier, because the nation is not a reflection liberal bent of MA.

Are there 5 others I’d rather have as Prez?
Yes!
Does that mean I wouldn’t support Romney if he were nominated? No.

[Colofornian]

It’s correct to ask people who teach others about their doctrine. However, the non-believers revel in our differences and wallow in our debates as proof that there is no God.

You know I've counted in the book of Acts over 10 times where the apostle Paul would go into the synagogue upon arriving in a new town. Several times, it mentions that he would reason, persuade, debate, argue, proclaim fervantly...[read Acts 17, 18, 19 alone] -- and Apollos joined in and did the same.

The same thing is said of Paul in 1 or 2 more times in the latter part of Acts. [If you want specific verses, let me know]

I hardly doubt that the world reading that in the Bible is going to be offended to the point as proof that there is no God. If so, you are accusing the Holy Spirit of leaving much in Scripture that would alienate non-Christians.

If you want other examples from Scripture, read Galatians 2 where it effectively says that Paul & Peter had it out over Peter making Gentiles jump extra hoops to be new Christians. Or read Matthew 23 as to how Jesus treated the religious legalists of his day.

There were, in fact, multiple verbal "showdowns" between the teachers of the law/Pharisees and Jesus. Are you now accusing Paul, Peter, and Jesus of failure to exercise discernment? Shouldn't they have kept those convos private? Shouldn't they have been left off the pages of Scripture, lest non-believers "revel" in such things?

What? You don't believe tough love is love? When 1 Cor. 13:6 says that "love...rejoices in the truth" -- you just tuck away truth if you perceive that it might not look good to unbelievers? Really?

You underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit. We don't need people coddling unbelievers in the falsehoods they have embraced. Remember, those falsehoods are what, in part, is keeping them from seeing themselves as sinners in need of a Physician who would heal them.

If somebody is diagnosed with cancer, do us a favor. Don't coddle them into believing that everything is hunky-dory.

[The_Reader_David]

The answer rests on how generous one wants to be in regarding heresies as defective versions of Christianity and still allowing them to bear the name.

As an Orthodox Christian, I am inclined to give some latitude in the use of the name “Christian” without further adjectives, and even more latitude if an adjective distinguishing the heretics from Orthodox Christians is appended (for example, I have no objection to the use of the word “Christian” in the sentence “The Vandals were Arian Christians,” despite the fact that Arianism was precisely the heresy against which the Nicene Creed was set forth.)

Mormon triadology and soteriology are both so defective that I think a qualifying adjective to remind us of their heresy is needed before I would not object to Mormons being characterized as “Christians”. And certainly Mormon “baptism” is completely invalid: Mormons must be received into the Church by baptism and chrismation, rather than through economia by chrismation only as is normal for those baptized in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit by most Christian confessions.

[MHGinTN]

You used the ‘working out [one’s] salvation with fear and trembling’ in a way that causes me to wonder if you know what that means? It does not mean work for your salvation OR work to save your salvation from destruction. Your salvation is based upon the Promise of God as He offers deliverance by His Grace in Christ Jesus. It is not of works lest you boast of your ability to get it done or save it from destruction.

What the phrase DOES mean addresses the life lived as an adopted child of God, and how you live that new life will be weighed at some future where/when of tremendous importance to your eternal ‘rewards’. But working out your own salvation does not address you somehow accomplishing your salvation. It cannot, because you have a nature bent to sin and you will sin again and again until you are no longer in this body of corruptible flesh.

When the pharisees asked Jesus what is 'the work God requires', He gave them very simple instruction: believe on Him Who He has sent. Put another way, there is 'faith', the noun, and 'faithe', the verb from. 'Faith' cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That Word is conveyed by the mouths of witnesses, by The Holy Spirit whispering into the soul of man, and by the speaking agreement to what God has said about your state of lostness without His life within you. 'Faithing' is living of the life AFTER God places the earnest of your inheritence in your human spirit. Faithing through His presence expands the life within you, but not faithing by His Spirit within you does not manipulate God into damning you else satan would win every struggle and no one would be saved.

Satan cannot take God's Spirit from your spirit and by God's Promise, He will never leave you once He makes you His stepping into your Spirit to be Present. God's Spirit within your human spirit is a present tense event which has no past of sin and no future of loss. His name is I AM

One last thought: as stated in an earlier post, eternal LIFE begins in this life, for eternal LIFE is the state of God's Spirit which He places in your immortal soul; in Adam eternal death was already started, and since the soul is immortal, without God's LIFE in the human spirit, the immortal existence is 'death, for in Adam 'all died', all inherit death. Jesus, as the Grace of God in Christ, allows the human soul to opt out of eternal death and have eternal LIFE. And yes, Jesus taught about this state of spiritual deadness [recall the scene where the rich young man says he needs to go bury his father before he can follow Jesus, and what Jesus told his disciples ...].

[Colofornian]

I should have added "or anyone" in the parens, my apologies. But here is a more general observation. Your posts raise very clear distinctions between Mormon-ism and Christianity. They track well with what I know of Mormon theology and history, much of which I have learned from Mormons themselves. You are commendably zealous for the faith. That said, at least by implication, there is a message that being a Mormon and being a Christian are mutually exclusive...Mormonism and Christianity are mutually exclusive doctrines, IMHO. But for an individual being a Christian and a Mormon is no less possible than being a sinner saved by grace and "working out [one's] salvation with fear and trembling."

Szonian, greyfoxx; reaganaut, colorcountry are all ex-Mos. Indeed they are all in Christ. And yes, at some point they went from Mormon --> Christian. I would think they would all testify that had they remained Mormons, that being so was not reconcilable with being in Christ.

I would remind you that in places like the book of Acts, we're told how we were transferred from the kingdom of darkness to one of light. I guess I don't see how we can be in both kingdoms simultaneously. But I would agree that we as mere mortals don't catch the movement of all from one to the other. After all, "no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3). Hence He operates in the darkness, leading those to the light.

There is, at some point, an either/or: We're either saved by grace -- or we're (as the Book of Mormon puts it) saved by grace AFTER ALL we can do. Anyone still trying to do all they can relationally, spiritually, emotionally, physically is still in themselves -- not in Christ. ["In Christ" was one of the apostle Paul's fave phrases...and I take that as one trusting in Christ -- including in His sacrificial atonement, in His righteousness, etc...atonement literally means at-one-ment...and one not reconciled with the true Christ is indeed still out of a relationship with Him].

I don't really think you have set yourself up as a judge of anyone else's salvation, but I can assure you, your posts are perceived that way.

Well, I'm sure that after Paul had been in Ephesus for three years, he could have established a more "ecumenical" 'tude toward other religionists. In such, the comments he made as he was leaving would have been "seen" as just a wee bit judgmental:
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. (Acts 20:28-31)

"Savage wolves" to describe those "who distort the truth" isn't exactly an "ecumenical" nicety of framing things, eh? I suppose the apostle Paul should have attended Your workshop entitled "Mormonism and Christianity are mutually exclusive doctrines" so that "Those who distort the truth" & "savage wolves" wouldn't have come across quite as harshly, eh? (I say that with only mild jest & a smile :) )

[Alamo-Girl]

One last thought: as stated in an earlier post, eternal LIFE begins in this life, for eternal LIFE is the state of God's Spirit which He places in your immortal soul; in Adam eternal death was already started, and since the soul is immortal, without God's LIFE in the human spirit, the immortal existence is 'death, for in Adam 'all died', all inherit death. Jesus, as the Grace of God in Christ, allows the human soul to opt out of eternal death and have eternal LIFE. And yes, Jesus taught about this state of spiritual deadness [recall the scene where the rich young man says he needs to go bury his father before he can follow Jesus, and what Jesus told his disciples ...].

SO very true, dear brother in Christ!

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24

God's Name is I AM.

[Turtlepower]

Jeff,

If Mormons would just openly admit their beliefs are very different from traditional Christianity, then you wouldn’t see as many posts directed as Freepers like yourself. Christians don’t appreciate it when Mormons try to identify themselves as just another Christian denomination. I take great offense with your use of the term “our savior”.

The Mormon Jesus is nothing like the Biblical Jesus, and despite your claims that nothing but the atonement of your Jesus saves, that’s not a clear picture of what Mormonism teaches.

I’d have much more respect for Mormons if they would be upfront and admit to the many differences between their beliefs and traditional Christianity.

[SoJoCo]

I suggest that people wait until they die, hope that they meet their maker at the Pearly Gates, and when they do then ask Him what He thinks.

[xhrist]

"who’s condemning anyone to Hell? Not me."

I'm pretty sure 'eternal destination' is binary.. We are either going to be with Him (in Heaven) or not (in Hell)...No?

[hocndoc]

Lord knows I’m not Paul, John, Peter, Apollos, or even Priscilla.

I do debate and try to correct the red letter “evangelical atheists” who just glow with hate for the God they deny.

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Mar 12:31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Throw in a mustard seed and Mark 9:24 “I believe; help my unbelief.”

However, among believers, I look for John 3:16, Isaiah 7:14, John 17 (Lord, please don’t let me be guilty of either creating division or falling asleep),

John_21:17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”
(E-Sword English Standard Version)

[xhrist]

"Bible clearly states what happens to those who reject Christ."

yes it does, but your iniital comment refered to people who "say they are NOT Christian"

I am not going to judge someone's eternal soul based on what I perceive about them. Noone knows the state of another person's soul except God.

just curious, what about those who die without coming to know Christ through no fault of their own?

[Jeff Head]

It certainly was not my intent to offend.

I spoke to many of the differences in my original post...and why we have them.

As to Christ, I will continue to say what I have said. He was born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, after returning from Egypt he grew up in Nazareth with the carpenter Joseph and His mother Mary, He taught at an early age in the temple to the astonishment of the priests there, He turned water into wine, fed the multitudes, healed the sick, raised the dead, chose his twelce disciples, taught the Gospel, was unjustly tried by the Jews and Romans and condemned to death, suffered in the Garden, suffered and died on the cross for all of our sins, and was resurrecte4d the third day and then ascended into HEaven where He sits on the right hand of God and will return to this earth some day.

That is my Jesus...my Savior. I hide nothing in saying this because those facts as I witness them are the essential crucible of my faith.

He is the one who saved me and has born my sins. He is the one whom I have "come unto" as He himself bids in Matthew.

We may differ in various and, from your perspective, very important points of doctrine. I will not deny that or discount it from your perspectvie.

But the essential teaching that Jesus Christ saves and His atonement and redemption on the cross as the Son of God is what we all must accept is the principle doctrine that has saved me.

And the fundamental moral principles of His gospel...to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to go the extra mile even with those who decietfully use me, to bear one anothers burdens, to succor the sick and the hungry, to teach and spread His gospel, to be honest and fair and just in my dealing are how I try and lead my life...because that is how He lived His. And those fundamental principles are also what make and keep this nation free.

Again, no intent whtsoever to offend and I am sorry if what I have said did offend you...but I cannot deny those things I have stated and witnessed to in all sincereity and humility...they are the essence of my faith.

...and with that, and in the hopes others can read the various statements and beliefs and decide for themselves...and in the hopes not to offend anyone else...I'll leave it at that and get back to my normal efforts of trying to share the audacity of truth about the current administration we have in this nation.

[stuartcr]

Perhaps he is using the discernment that the Spirit gave him. Just because it may not be the same as your, doesn’t mean it’s wrong, does it?