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Are people with concealed handgun carry permits a menace to society?
The Volokh Conspiracy ^ | December 28, 2011 | David Kopel

Posted on 12/30/2011 12:36:24 AM PST by neverdem

According to the New York Times, the answer seems to be “yes.” An article in yesterday’s Times by Michael Luo collects some anecdotes about misbehavior by a few licensees in North Carolina. The Times article has some numbers in it, and it provides the number of North Carolinians with carry permits (240,000). After a thorough search of North Carolina records, the Times finds that about 1% of permitees were convicted of something, other than a traffic offense, over the past five years. Of these 2,400 convictions, by far the largest group is “nearly 900 permit holders were convicted of drunken driving, a potentially volatile circumstance given the link between drinking and violence.”

“Drunk driving” (which, I would guess, the Times uses as a shorthand for lesser offenses such as driving while impaired) is a serious crime in itself. But just because a woman has three glasses of wine with dinner at a restaurant, and then gets caught in a police checkpoint, doesn’t make her some “potentially volatile” person who is going to murder somebody in an inebriated rage.

In any large population (e.g., 240,000) there will be at least a small percentage who over a period of time are found guilty of some crimes. This does not mean that that population as a whole is dangerous. It would have been useful to compare the conviction rates of North Carolinians who have carry licenses with the convictions rates of those who do not. I suspect that the non-licensee crime rate would be much higher, especially for violent gun crimes.

In a 2009 article in the Connecticut Law Review, I collected data from Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, Louisiana, Texas, and Florida. (The state data begin on page 564 of the article.) The data show that concealed carry licensees are much more law-abiding than...

(Excerpt) Read more at volokh.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: banglist; concealedcarry

1 posted on 12/30/2011 12:36:29 AM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem
The amount of non legitimate self defense shootings by licensed concealed weapons carriers is almost non existent.

It's really amazing just how good the numbers actually are, especially the lack of negligent discharges

2 posted on 12/30/2011 12:43:52 AM PST by rdcbn
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To: neverdem

Ridiculous question from the NYT. How many working at 620 Eighth Ave. are packing....legally?


3 posted on 12/30/2011 12:47:11 AM PST by BIGLOOK (o)
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To: neverdem

It is safe to say that if a writer is from NYC there is a 75% chance they are Batcrap crazy and off their medication!


4 posted on 12/30/2011 12:52:45 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: neverdem

plenty if Americans would agree that the New York Times is a menace to society.


5 posted on 12/30/2011 12:52:58 AM PST by RC one (I will not vote for the gun grabbing, draft dodging, pro-choice, so called Republican Mitt Romney.)
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To: neverdem

There’s no guns in the utopia of NY, what are they afraid of besides southern food?


6 posted on 12/30/2011 12:56:28 AM PST by MaxMax
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To: JohnLott

ping to interesting take on the NYT’s recent story (Luo)


7 posted on 12/30/2011 1:27:46 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: neverdem

NC has turned hard left, thanks to the influx of NE Libs and Governor “suspend elections for two years” Perdue. Raleigh is far too close to DC and has become contaminated. Glad to be back in WV..now I need to convince my grown children to leave NC.


8 posted on 12/30/2011 1:59:28 AM PST by momincombatboots (Back to West by G-d Virginia.)
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To: neverdem
Based on the previous post:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2826665/posts

Cops may be a menace to society based on the way this article was written.

9 posted on 12/30/2011 2:57:17 AM PST by maddog55 (OBAMA: Why stupid people shouldn't vote.)
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To: neverdem

“a potentially volatile circumstance given the link between drinking and violence.:

And I always thought that the drinking was used as an anesthetic so the nagging outside world didn’t get to them and send them over the edge!

No wonder I feel so safe in NC... Everyone has a gun!


10 posted on 12/30/2011 3:04:53 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: momincombatboots

“NC has turned hard left, thanks to the influx of NE Libs”

Hey, not all of imported Yankees to NC are liberal. Some of us are conservative. The problem is, many of the newbies are from the “Left Coast.”

Just outside Raleigh is a booming city of CARY. Population about 135,000 people. The joke here is that CARY stands for “Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.”


11 posted on 12/30/2011 3:10:21 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: neverdem
>>It would have been useful to compare the conviction rates of North Carolinians who have carry licenses with the convictions rates of those who do not.

I did this in another thread about an article commenting on this latest bit of NYT anti-1A agitprop, only I used national statistics. I would guess that the general NC population probably has a slightly higher crime rate than the national figures I used, so the CCW group would look even better. What follows is that post:

Luo fails to make the obvious comparison [between CCW holders and the general population] because he and the Times are pushing an agenda. He and they are not interested in a fair transparent analysis of the facts.

Note that he touts 2400 "felonies and misdemeanors." Per the NY Times article, there were only 200 felony convictions out of those 2400 arrests over 5 years in a population of about a quarter million. That boils down to a rate of about 17 felonies / 100,000 population per year for the concealed carry population.

The U.S. violent crime rate for the general population was 403.6 / 100,000 in 2010 (source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports). Note that this is just violent crime, which is a subset of felonies, and yet still the general population of the U.S. is more than 23 times more likely to commit a violent crime than the NC CCW permit holders are to commit a felony.

I'll take my chances with the concealed carry population, thank you very much. I wonder what Michael Luo would prefer?

Frankly, I could in general care less about the misdemeanors Luo lumps into his numbers in a transparent attempt to make the numbers look worse for concealed carry holders. Heck, you can probably get one of those for littering. I'll have to ask my friend who was ticketed for throwing boiled peanut hulls out the car window while riding around in rural GA, surely one of the most absurd citations ever. I expect this sort of event would have ended up in Luo's numbers.

Luo and the Times clearly have an agenda here, and it isn't a fair and transparent analysis of the data surrounding crime by CCW holders. If he were interested in such a thing, he could have easily included a comparison such as the one I generated above with just a few minutes of research.

12 posted on 12/30/2011 3:10:30 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: neverdem

All I know is that I have killed less people with my handguns than Teddy Kennedy did with his car


13 posted on 12/30/2011 3:13:30 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: MaxMax

“There’s no guns in the utopia of NY...”

Don’t kid yourself. You can guarantee that EVERY little old Hasidic Jewish man on West 47th St. (Diamond District) is packing an Uzi.


14 posted on 12/30/2011 3:55:28 AM PST by panaxanax (0bama >>WORST PRESIDENT EVER.)
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To: neverdem

In a 2009 article in the Connecticut Law Review, I collected data from Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, Louisiana, Texas, and Florida. (The state data begin on page 564 of the article.) The data show that concealed carry licensees are much more law-abiding than...


There’s 564+ pages in this article??? [chuckles]

Looks top me like the NYT’s is more of a menace to trees and it’s own inductry, more than those of us who carry a firearm for “lawful, self-defensive” purposes...

Not that I believe the NYT’s is a definitive source of credible information on a great variety of things...


15 posted on 12/30/2011 4:18:27 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: FreedomPoster
Per the NY Times article, there were only 200 felony convictions out of those 2400 arrests over 5 years...

And how many of those 200 were actually carrying at the time?

In addition, how many people without a concealed carry permit were, in those five years, convicted of a felony while not carrying or carrying illegally?

16 posted on 12/30/2011 4:29:40 AM PST by CPOSharky (The only thing straight, white, Christian males get is the blame for everything.)
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To: neverdem

Yes. We should eliminate the permits (but keep the concealed carrying). All government permits are a menace to society.


17 posted on 12/30/2011 4:29:47 AM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: MaxMax

There’s no guns in the utopia of NY, what are they afraid of besides southern food?

Correct English pronunciation?


18 posted on 12/30/2011 4:31:15 AM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: neverdem

I read an article recently about the number of issued carry permits per thousand citizens. New York State was number one. The data below is from 2000. Several states don’t make the data available so it is likely that states like Arizona and Alaska may well have higher rates.

Permits per every 1,000 adults

1. New York 77.71

2. Indiana 67.02

3. Pennsylvania 56.16

4. Washington 51.41

5. Connecticut 48.75

6. Idaho 42.68

7. Utah 39.33

8. Tennessee 37.29

9. Kentucky 28.29

10. Florida 26.95


19 posted on 12/30/2011 4:45:42 AM PST by IamConservative ("The ability to speak eloquently is not to be confused with having something to say." - MP Hart)
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To: neverdem

Newspapers that feel that CCW people are a danger to society are more dangerous than CCW carriers.


20 posted on 12/30/2011 4:46:32 AM PST by vetvetdoug
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To: MaxMax
There’s no guns in the utopia of NY, what are they afraid of besides southern food?

I assume you are referring to NYC. Except for NYC, NY law does not require a permit to purchase a long gun and the vast majority of upstate counties issue CCW permits on a shall issue basis. (BTW -- The southern food is not the problem; it's the fat people that seem to go with the food.)

21 posted on 12/30/2011 5:00:47 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: MaxMax
There’s no guns in the utopia of NY, what are they afraid of besides southern food?

I assume you are referring to NYC. Except for NYC, NY law does not require a permit to purchase a long gun and the vast majority of upstate counties issue CCW permits on a shall issue basis. (BTW -- The southern food is not the problem; it's the fat people that seem to go with the food.)

22 posted on 12/30/2011 5:01:00 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: tired&retired

I lived in the Asheville area 11 years... Maybe that’s the problem .


23 posted on 12/30/2011 5:02:17 AM PST by momincombatboots (Back to West by G-d Virginia.)
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To: IamConservative
Arizona and Alaska may well have higher rates.

Arizona does not require a permit. So you could say the number is 1000 per thousand.

24 posted on 12/30/2011 5:03:05 AM PST by CPOSharky (The only thing straight, white, Christian males get is the blame for everything.)
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To: neverdem
Are people with concealed handgun carry permits a menace to society?

HELL yes!

Why ELSE would I carry one?

If a 'society member' comes into the gas station I'm in and demands money from the clerk while brandishing his weapon; you can be SURE I will 'menace' his soon to be room temperature butt!

We don't take too kindly to that sort of stuff out my way!


https://www.google.com/search?q=kroger+employee+kills+robber&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=

25 posted on 12/30/2011 5:30:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: IamConservative

Woo woo!

Number 2!


26 posted on 12/30/2011 5:33:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: neverdem

“Are people with concealed-carry permits a menace to society?

For the stealth soviet revolutionaries among us, the answer will always be a resounding yes.

(They don’t want them free Christians to have any guns because they make not take too well to the revolution.)

IMHO


27 posted on 12/30/2011 5:42:39 AM PST by ripley
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To: neverdem

I wonder if Mr. Luo has tried checking on crimes committed by cops into proportion to their numbers. He would probably find out that concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than the cops...


28 posted on 12/30/2011 6:17:39 AM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: IamConservative

Alaska has Constitutional Carry - no permits.


29 posted on 12/30/2011 6:27:44 AM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Elsie

I’ll give them 10 to 1 odds on a bet as to what is a bigger menace to society, measured by the resulting violence & death:

1) Concealed handgun permitted citizens.
2) Children of “single mothers”


30 posted on 12/30/2011 6:28:37 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: neverdem

The New York Times fascists fear armed citizens because of what happened to their totalitarian buddies in Libya.

The Libyan people and the army - more than half of it - attacked the government, dragging bureaucrats and Qaddafi loyalists into the streets and either shooting them or hanging them from lampposts. Thousands of Qaddafi loyalists are MIA, being held in private jails by militias. Their fate is unknown.

Qaddafi’s army chief of staff was taken into the street and either shot or hanged. Qaddafi’s elite bodyguards were shot or hanged. The brutal sub-Saharan mercenaries paid to protect Qaddafi were killed. Qaddafi himself was dragged onto a road, slammed against the hood of an SUV, beaten severely and then executed.

Bet your dollars that this demonstration of armed citizens scared the cheese out of the fascists at the NYT and the Washington elitists.


31 posted on 12/30/2011 6:31:19 AM PST by sergeantdave
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To: neverdem

This was an interesting effort by the NYT.

I grew up in NY and have recently been traveling there frequently because of family concerns. I have actually been looking into legal CCW once I cross the Westchester-Connecticut line (I travel thru Westchester, the Bronx, Queens, sometimes Manhattan, and Nassau County), because I am legal in all six New England states and I carry every day.

It’s AMAZING that, in my situation (traveling with small kids, at night, and managing monetary affairs) that legal carry is an impossibility. It’s even MORE amazing that, of all the weapons violators who abound in the five boroughs and on the Island, the person most likely to be sentenced to prison if caught is - me.

It’s truly a complete moral inversion, and while the liberal fascism that has taken over NYS/NYC has many, many examples more injurious to people than this one, this one is particularly offensive to me as I sit here, unarmed, for the next few days.

NYS/NYC policy of no legal nonresident carry (except for business owners in NY who reside elsewhere, and famous people) is as clear and unambiguous a denial of the Second Amendment right as I can imagine.

I started by saying that this piece in the Slimes was “interesting”. It’s interesting because it indicates that the Ruling Class must be under pressure to allow legal CCW, even in NY, and they want the sheeple to go back to sleep.


32 posted on 12/30/2011 6:50:13 AM PST by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: neverdem
No, but cops are:

'I’m a cop, I can do whatever I want ' off-duty policeman shouts before 'executing guy in bar'.

NO cheers, unfortunately.

33 posted on 12/30/2011 7:02:37 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: vetvetdoug

To the writers and editors of the New York Times: the people who have CCW licenses are not the problem. Your childlike faith in armed state employees is the problem, as evidenced by this discussion between a Utah Dept. of Transportation (UDOT) agent and CCW holder.

The UDOT agent admits to having no problem with stealing and killing fellow Americans in an “emergency” food shortage situation. Here is the fun story about a UDOT agent and food storage. [For the NYT: folks in the “flyover country” of Utah are taught from their earliest days to have survival food stockpiled (for up to a year), unlike New Yorkers who are running to their local convenience stores every other day.]

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/23Dec11.html


34 posted on 12/30/2011 7:03:17 AM PST by MasterGunner01 (11)
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To: neverdem
"Are people with concealed handgun carry permits a menace to society?"

Wow, and all this time I was told it was people with guns that were dangerous. Now we find out it is the people with permits. I learn something new each day.

35 posted on 12/30/2011 7:33:37 AM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: momincombatboots

“I lived in the Asheville area 11 years... Maybe that’s the problem .”

Visiting Asheville is like going back to the late 60’s or early 70’s.... I love it there.


36 posted on 12/30/2011 10:46:56 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: MrB

It CAN’T be #2; for we SUBSIDIZE the creation of these!


37 posted on 12/30/2011 4:41:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jim Noble
It’s truly a complete moral inversion, and while the liberal fascism that has taken over NYS/NYC has many, many examples more injurious to people than this one, this one is particularly offensive to me as I sit here, unarmed, for the next few days.

NYC! What's NOT to LOVE??


38 posted on 12/30/2011 4:50:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Little Ray

I know if he checked the members of “Mayors against Guns” or what ever Hizoner Bloomberg’s astroturf group is called, he would find a higher felony rate.


39 posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:17 PM PST by donmeaker (e is trancendentall)
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To: donmeaker

Yep. Mayors are lot more likely to be convicted felons than CCW holders!


40 posted on 12/30/2011 7:56:57 PM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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