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Elephants Understand Human Gestures
Scientific Computing ^ | October 10, 2013 | University of St Andrews

Posted on 10/14/2013 8:38:08 AM PDT by null and void

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To: null and void

“The older cities would be mined for the metals, and the remaining traces after enough weathering could easily be taken as ore deposits.”

How exactly would we mistake man-made, refined metals and alloys for natural ores?


51 posted on 10/14/2013 10:23:08 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: null and void
Reread the story. Both groups were maintaining continuity, but from opposite viewpoints. The Church had records going back several cycles.

Your point about maintaining continuity is well-taken, although my point was that the scientists were trying to preserve civilization and technology, something the Cult had no interest in...they were simply mystics trying maintain their religion (a point of view Asimov wasn't particularly fond of; the scientists are presented positively, whereas the members of the Cult are wild-eyed fantatics).

Also the original short story is different from the expanded novel.

I've never read the novel, only the short story.

52 posted on 10/14/2013 10:26:06 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Boogieman
How exactly would we mistake man-made, refined metals and alloys for natural ores?

Exactly so. Certain metals (chromium, nickle, etc.) would still be present in far greater concentrations than any natural ore.

53 posted on 10/14/2013 10:28:47 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Boogieman
Add enough oxygen, chlorine and just plain dirt and slime and it would eventually look "natural".

Especially if you are convinced that any metal ores you find simply have to be natural!

No one, and I mean no one, thinks it the slightest bit odd that the iron ore deposits in India had precisely the amount of vanadium need to make Damascus steel.

54 posted on 10/14/2013 10:31:40 AM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: Kip Russell

Nickle iron? Ever been to Sudbury?


55 posted on 10/14/2013 10:33:24 AM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: Kip Russell
I've never read the novel, only the short story.

You read it, I'll read Evolution, sounds like a fair deal to me!

56 posted on 10/14/2013 10:35:55 AM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: null and void
Nickle iron? Ever been to Sudbury?

It's my understanding that the concentrations of heavy metals that would result from the remains of a cluster of skyscrapers such as those present in a major city are far great than even a nickle-rich area such as Sudbury.

My understanding could be wrong, of course...

57 posted on 10/14/2013 10:40:21 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: null and void
You read it, I'll read Evolution, sounds like a fair deal to me!

Deal!

(after I finish Baxter's latest novel, "Proxima", which I just started)

58 posted on 10/14/2013 10:41:58 AM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: null and void

“Add enough oxygen, chlorine and just plain dirt and slime and it would eventually look “natural”.”

No, it really wouldn’t.


59 posted on 10/14/2013 10:58:50 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Kip Russell

Run by libs, everything was renewable, natural fiber and biodegradable. Government shut down and they disappeared without leaving a trace.


60 posted on 10/14/2013 11:50:54 AM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: dainbramaged

And, as always, be afraid of Bad Juju.


61 posted on 10/14/2013 11:54:10 AM PDT by almcbean
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To: DManA
Depends on the dog. Not even the dogs' breeds.

Of the several Shelties family members have had, I knew one who would look where I was pointing, and another that would look at my finger.

62 posted on 10/14/2013 12:01:14 PM PDT by ExGeeEye (It's been over 90 days; time to start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: Kip Russell
"The pyramid remained the tallest man-made structure in the world for over 3,800 years,[6] unsurpassed until the 160-metre-tall spire of Lincoln Cathedral was completed c. 1300. The accuracy of the pyramid's workmanship is such that the four sides of the base have an average error of only 58 millimetres in length.[7] The base is horizontal and flat to within ±15 mm (0.6 in).[8] The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc)[9] based on true north, not magnetic north,[10] and the finished base was squared to a mean corner error of only 12 seconds of arc.[11] The completed design dimensions, as suggested by Petrie's survey and subsequent studies, are estimated to have originally been 280 cubits high by 440 cubits long at each of the four sides of its base. The ratio of the perimeter to height of 1760/280 cubits equates to 2π to an accuracy of better than 0.05%"

Obliviously the work of a civilization barely out of the stone age. /s

63 posted on 10/14/2013 7:37:29 PM PDT by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: jpsb
Obliviously the work of a civilization barely out of the stone age. /s

Yes, it must of been engineers from Atlantis...or Mu..or...Hyperboria...or Middle Earth...or maybe Narnia...or:


64 posted on 10/14/2013 9:26:03 PM PDT by Kip Russell (Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ---Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Kip Russell
"Based on these estimates, building this in 20 years would involve installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Similarly, since it consists of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years would involve moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night"

And these stone age people were very well organized too!

65 posted on 10/15/2013 4:29:50 AM PDT by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: null and void; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

Thanks null and void.

66 posted on 10/28/2013 6:44:59 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: Cold Heart

We had four dogs at one time-—one of the dogs, a lab, dobie, spaniel, terrier mix watched and reacted to the TV and would obey the finger point. He was a lot human, even with expressions-we miss him awfully.

The other three of various and sundry mixes(papillon/terrier; beagle/corgi; lab/beagle/herder dog) just didn’t follow the finger pointing idea. The latter survives, but does not respond to us much...then again he’s getting up there in years.


67 posted on 10/28/2013 6:52:40 PM PDT by madison10
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To: jpsb; Kip Russell

People calculate stone placement rates for the Egyptian pyramids based on the “fact” that it must all have been done in 20 year, yet no one asserts that a medieval cathedral had to be built in 20 years.


68 posted on 10/28/2013 6:52:58 PM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: DManA
Dogs inherently understand the human pointing gesture too.

Absolutely! Not only that, some of them will retrieve what you are pointing at!

69 posted on 10/28/2013 6:58:41 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: SunkenCiv

Well I hope that GOP-”E” Elephant mascot knows which finger I’m holding up right now and remembers it.......


70 posted on 10/28/2013 6:58:46 PM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: Cold Heart

Yup. All my dogs look at my finger.

***

Are you sure you’re pointing correctly?

;-)


71 posted on 10/28/2013 6:59:30 PM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless Americad)
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To: DManA
Dogs inherently understand the human pointing gesture too.

My dog would just look at my finger.

72 posted on 10/28/2013 7:00:49 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass (There should be a whole lot more going on than throwing bleach, said one woman.)
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To: DManA

Yup.

And my Dobes will look where I’m looking if I say “What’s that?”.

If I then point in that direction, they tear off to see if something needs biting.

;D


73 posted on 10/28/2013 7:04:54 PM PDT by Salamander (Blue Oyster Cult Will Be The Soundtrack For The Revolution.....)
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To: null and void
What if the elephant *is* the gesture?


74 posted on 10/28/2013 7:12:48 PM PDT by Daffynition (*$17,000,000,000,000* Fear the beards! GO SOX!)
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To: DManA

I trained mine to eat, too.


75 posted on 10/28/2013 7:25:47 PM PDT by 2111USMC (Aim Small Miss Small)
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To: DManA
"Dogs inherently understand the human pointing gesture too."

Exactly.

I just recently read a science study demostrating this to be true.

76 posted on 10/28/2013 7:33:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: 2111USMC

I taught mine that old trick where you tell him a treat is poison and he looks at it till you tell it was really ok, and then he’s supposed to gobble it up.

Took about 2 minutes to teach him poison but for some reason I couldn’t teach him the signal that it was ok. So I picked up the biscuit and took a nibble and he gobbled it down.

So that was the trick from then on. He wouldn’t touch it till I proved it was ok by tasting it myself. Which made it a 10X better trick. I’m not sure if it was him or me who came up with the twist.


77 posted on 10/28/2013 7:38:24 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

I think your dog trained you well. Did he show you off to his friends?


78 posted on 10/28/2013 7:39:47 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: Squantos

79 posted on 10/28/2013 7:43:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: null and void; Kip Russell
The ancient Sumerians (The Wise Men From The East), brought much knowledge with them when they had to leave, Sundaland.
Humans lived and prospered there during the last Ice Age.

See below when it went underwater.


80 posted on 10/28/2013 7:44:35 PM PDT by blam
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To: jpsb

As far as that ratio goes, there’s no reason to think much of it — there’s no record of any intent, it’s merely the consequence of their having stacked up stones and our having measured it, inferring an intent. Not much different than seeing a Face on Mars.

The alleged accuracy of the construction of the Great Pyramid is obviously greatly exaggerated, since A) it’s in very rough shape, so unless it was built in rough shape, the original accuracy must have been much different :’) and B) the exterior used to be faced with smooth limestone (inscribed with hieroglyphics to boot), now virtually gone, carted off to build mosques and whatnot in Cairo.


81 posted on 10/28/2013 7:48:12 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: Kip Russell

Thanks. Not only is the name of the 4th dynasty pharaoh who had it constructed known, the name of the 4th dynasty architect of the Great Pyramid is also known, the nearby site of his tomb is known, and at least one large image of Hemienu (excavated near the base of the GP) is known.

http://emhotep.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/htha01-hemienu.png

Houdin’s internal ramp theory:
http://emhotep.net/2009/09/12/locations/lower-egypt/giza-plateau-lower-egypt/hemienu-to-houdin-building-a-great-pyramid-introduction/


82 posted on 10/28/2013 7:53:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: jpsb

The Sphinx is older than the Pyramids; that information comes from a New Kingdom copy of an Old Kingdom record, and the longterm effects of water erosion of the oldest parts of the Sphinx are clear and obvious. But Khufu built the Great Pyramid.

His son and successor Djedjefre began construction of his own pyramid and tomb at Abu Roash, but died young (there may have been a dynastic struggle, or an invasion, but he very well may have just died of disease), the pyramid was not completed (circumstantial evidence for a dynastic struggle), and what remained of it was finally carted off on camels to build modern Cairo.

Djedjefre’s son was a child, may have briefly ruled after him, but Djedjefre’s younger brother Khafre succeeded one or both and built the second of the large Giza pyramids.

At least one of Khufu’s granddaughters was entombed (or at least had a tomb constructed) under the surface of the Giza plateau, which is somewhat riddled with catacombs, shafts, and tunnels.

Khafre’s son and successor was Menkaure, builder of the smallest of the large pyramids at Giza. It’s a pipsqueak compared with the others; Khafre’s appears as large as Khufu’s because it’s built on higher ground, but has something more than half the mass, and Menkaure’s was a fraction of that size. If memory serves, in modern times when accessed the Khafre burial chamber was found to hold the sarcophagus of a New Kingdom noble.


83 posted on 10/28/2013 8:04:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: null and void

I wholeheartedly agree, there would be nothing much to find, and thousands of years for unfamiliar artifacts to be vandalized, melted down, reused in other ways, dumped somewhere else, incorporated into foundations, and of course, more or less permanently obscured by the last rise of the seas after the glaciers melted.


84 posted on 10/28/2013 8:07:10 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Stan: “Them! Don’ listen properly, do they? Don’ look properly either. Never notice nuffink, they don’”


85 posted on 10/28/2013 8:28:13 PM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: SunkenCiv

Yeah ...he needs to be put out to pasture next time he’s up for reelection ......

My opinion !


86 posted on 10/28/2013 9:52:35 PM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: null and void

Typical modern science: GIGO.


87 posted on 10/31/2013 6:07:18 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: DManA

Yes, they do. But they’re been domesticated for a very long time.

Tests with wolves, even those reared with humans, demonstrate that understanding humans pointing is NOT inherent in wolves.

So the dog’s ability to understand human pointing has been a recent genetic development.


88 posted on 10/31/2013 5:14:52 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITIZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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>> Elephants Understand Human Gestures

Or humans understand elephant gestures.


89 posted on 10/31/2013 5:25:52 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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