Skip to comments.Giant Tesla battery factory producing 'affordable' electric cars at $35,000? [Nevada solar?]
Posted on 04/12/2014 3:07:03 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
"......The California car firm yesterday revealed plans for the factory that would employ up to 6,500 people , cover 1,000 acres, and cost $5 billion, said the Wall Street Journal,
Solar and wind farms would at least in part supply the huge power needs of the plant in either Nevada, New Mexico, or Arizona. Reno is thought to be a favorite.
Tesla needs its own production to hit its cost target for a more affordable car.
Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk's idea is a "Gigafactory" that takes in raw materials and produces finished lithium-ion batteries. He has said he intends to build the factory with unidentified partners...."
Two months prior to the announcement of "gigafactory" plans that is causing nerd orgasms all over the tech and auto sphere, another of Musk's interests, SolarCity (SCTY_) announced a new program that would provide large batteries to businesses to help them lower peak demand rates.
The program, DemandLogic, announced in early December, couples the solar panel installations that SolarCity is known for with refrigerator-sized batteries that store up to a third of the solar power. Specially design software can be programmed to take advantage of that stored electricity during times of peak demand........
........In SolarCity's DemandLogic, we see a practical solution for the company's customers that also has a benefit for its sister company, which needed to expand its battery-producing operations to produce more, better and cheaper cars.
How does that fit in with Musk's third company, SpaceX? Hard to tell. As a private company, SpaceX is under little obligation to tell us anything. Musk has said in interviews that SpaceX doesn't patent its technology for fear of handing proprietary technology to two of its direct competitors, the state-run programs of Russia and China, where U.S. patents are next to impossible to enforce. But I doubt Musk would have the same concerns about sharing technology developed in SpaceX's rocketry and space travel labs with Tesla and SolarCity..........
SolarCity Gets Charge From Tesla Gigafactory - Feb 28, 2014
The U.S. taxpayers have "invested" around a $1Billion in Musk's 3 PRIVATE businesses. Not to mention those carbon credits.
April 2, 2014 - Tesla in China: Elon Musks Litmus Test "...........So, has Tesla managed to hit the right chord in China? Will Teslas Model S strategy break the mold of high-priced imported cars in China? And above all, for Tesla, is the risk worth it? Opinion is divided over whether Teslas China pricing is realistic or not. Andreas Graef, a Principal at A.T. Kearney Management Consulting Co. in Shanghai, believes that the current price does not factor in distribution and marketing-related costs, which a foreign brand direly needs while trying to establish a foothold in China. Has Tesla factored in the higher cost of advertising or higher tactical MSRP [manufacturers suggested retail price] discounts? he asks. (Tesla did not respond to interview requests.)......."
“We built a huge battery factory without considering where the extra capacity to charge those batteries would come from. Electricity is magic and comes from the walls.”
Wind farms are not as efficient as they claim, neither is solar.
Yet this hasn’t stopped them from slashing nuke and coal plants.
They must first address capacity on the grid before they start pez dispensing electric toys.
And even then, the only way the toys can compete is if gubbmint puts its hands in there and gives the toys a monopoly...
Tesla got a $465M loan from the government in Aug 2009 and finished paying it off last year with interest.
Ford received a $5.9 BILLION loan from the feds and plans to pay it off over 20 years. Tesla has no other government funds.
SpaceX funding has all been private to the tune of about $1.2B. SpaceX launch contracts are 2/3 private 1/3 NASA. NASA granted a $1.2B contract to SpaceX and made an advance payment of $278M. It would cost the taxpayers about $2B if NASA made those launches themselves.
Don’t know much about Solar City.
You can have 50% of the auto market become electric vehicles without building a single extra power plant.
Because power plants are largely idle at night.
It makes financial sense for EV owners to power overnight while they are asleep and rates are lowest.
Plus this allows power companies to run plants at closer to capacity allowing the fixed cost to generate each kw to fall.
With fairly cheap smart grid tech technology you can significantly increase EV penetration over 50% without building any extra power plants.
They are selling us junk science. These technologies have not matured yet the infrastructure is not in place to accomodate. Much like inventing the car and gasoline but no gas stations to support it. They have found a way of scamming tax payer money with the help of our politicians to fund these projects all the while thier main goal is to fill thier pockets, SOLYNDRA
The other issue with large numbers of electrics is funding road construction and maintenance. Owners don’t pay gas taxes, and so aren’t paying their share. This will have to be addressed sooner or later if the numbers grow.
What ever happened to the idea of super capacitors??
Exactly right. I very much admire Elon Musk;I think he’s brilliant. He’s getting a lot of flack lately because *gasp* he wants to sell his cars directly to the owner. States are under pressure from auto dealers. Heaven forbid we cut out the middleman. Likely one of the great inventors of our age. Not to mention he’s a LEGAL immigrant.
On the vehicle side, I am pretty steadfast in my skepticism at $200 or above. Im a bear, Albertine said. My bull case is in the case that the cars become ancillary.
Tesla, he said, would essentially become a power storage company. That would benefit SolarCity Corp., which is partly owned by Musk and may be a partner in the factory.
Musk said last week that Panasonic Corp. -- now the biggest supplier of lithium-ion cells used in Teslas batteries -- may also be involved. Panasonics participation is not 100 percent confirmed, he said in a Bloomberg Television interview.
While Tesla identified only four states as potential hosts, its going to draw interest from many others, Cuneo said. He predicted a robust competition where incentives are probably going to be a big factor.
A slide-show on the Tesla website includes a rendering of the facility in a desert landscape, with adjacent solar and wind farms to supply electricity. Construction could begin as early as this year, according to the presentation.".....
Short story is that you want to be in the upper left corner of this graph to power a motor vehicle. Supercapacitors are not yet as good as lead acid or lithium ion batteries. Fuel cells are in the right spot but far too expensive using platinum or palladium as catalysts.
Fight the Free Sh☭t Nation
Should be that you want to be in the upper right of this diagram. Mis-typed.
So I take it you are not enthused about the work being done with Graphene which I believe puts it in the category of an Ultra Capacitor? I see some Graphene websites with PHD types experimenting with Silica and Tungsten DiSulfide in combination with the Graphene...
I think the idea of electric cars running on batteries is wrongheaded anyway. They should generate their own electricity rather than relying on batteries.
In their current form they’re rendered virtually useless in this part of the country during the winter.
The solution to electric cars is to develop a standard detachable battery pack, like my cordless drill, that can be replaced in a few minutes. You could go to a station, an attended could switch packs while you get coffee. The station could charge a fee and everyone is happy. No more 8 hour down times.
The subsidies and investment of public money have to be counted too. Also, the maintenance/replacement cost of the batteries.
Failure to count that is journalistic malpractice.
My enthusiasm is also tempered by watching the evolution of the next thing to replace the magnetic disk drive. There was SOS, Magnetic bubbles, optical, magneto-optic and a host of others. Now flash may do the job, or the boffins at IBM will pull another order of magnitude increase in density out of their nether regions. I don't know where the smart money is today, but I do know where it has been.
Technology is hard. 9 out of 10 good ideas don't pan out as successful companies. And remember, these things are not sources of energy, merely really cool gas tanks.
Fight the Free Sh☭t Nation
There is also the problem of an already overtaxed power grid, looming increases in prices due to EPA regulations, and increased Federal and state taxes on power consumption as the gasoline taxes for road building and maintenance decline.
Does anyone imagine that the EPA will suddenly stop imposing more draconian regulations on power producers? Does anyone imagine that the power companies will eat the cost of EPA compliance?
And who thinks $35K for a car is affordable in the first place? We all know that the $35K price is before shipping, dealer prep and markup - so now the “affordable” car is $40K before any options are added by the customer. How do electric cars perform going over the Rocky and Cascade Mountains; how do they perform during the height of a cold winter? Does that car heater keep you warm on your 30 mile commute when temperatures are in the minuses? How much range do you lose because that heater is going full blast, while diving at 60-70 MPH? And when stuck in a traffic jam during the winter?
50% of the auto market becoming electric vehicles in the South Western US and Hawaii maybe, but not 50% of the entire US and Alaska.
And cheap smart grid technology is still largely a dream for most of the US power grid, still struggling to replace aging equipment. True smart grid technology also means the Federal government will have access to your personal power consumption by just one new Federal regulation. Can a new Federal tax be far behind?
Outstanding post M H...
Tesla is making money on carbon credits now.
Solar City is making money from the Chinese solar panels it has installed on schools and military installations (where they rent them).
Space X has a manifest of government and commercial contracts (a few have flown).
It seems a lot of taxpayer money has found its way into Musk’s pocket - and the profit will be all his. In coming years we will be paying through the nose for energy, rocket rides and private transportation -— just watch.
quote “The solution to electric cars is to develop a standard detachable battery pack, like my cordless drill, that can be replaced in a few minutes. You could go to a station, an attended could switch packs while you get coffee. The station could charge a fee and everyone is happy. No more 8 hour down times.”
umm.... that is exactly what Tesla is now doing. They can switch out two cars batteries faster than it would take to fill up one car with gas.
Thanks for actual technical facts instead of the uninformed BS that’s usually spewed on threads like this.
By the time Obama leaves office, 35k for a new car will feel like a bargain.
Wrong. It took about a decade and a bit over a billion dollars for SpaceX to develop the Falcon 9 launcher. Of that amount, about $800 million was federal grants and subsidies from both NASA and DoD.
The great "money saving" contract to SpaceX to deliver cargo to ISS is no bargain either. That 12 flight contract costs the government $1.6 billion or, $133 million per flight. The up-mass for a single Falcon 9/Dragon is 7300 lbs. That costs out at $18,219 per pound of supplies delivered to ISS.
For comparison, the costs of delivery to ISS by Shuttle were around $10,000 per pound. That makes SpaceX about 80% more expensive than Shuttle, at least for this purpose.
SpaceX and most of "New Space" are not "private enterprise" -- they are simply money-grubbing contractor leeches with better public relations skills than Boeing and LockMart.
Your point is well made, but I'll dispute the "really cool" part of it. Just look at the energy density of this technology, both in energy per unit mass, and energy per unit volume. All are but a tiny fraction of the gasoline in your "gas tank". Until automobiles are able to safely haul around the energy in 20 gallons of gasoline, and insert it into a vehicle in 5 minutes along side of the road, these technologies are only pipe dreams.
Lyndon Rive is Elon Musk's cousin.
Aug 14, 2013: Reids clean energy push boosted with official welcoming of solar panel firm to Las Vegas "Fresh from his National Clean Energy Summit on Tuesday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had another green date today, cutting the ribbon to open solar panel developer SolarCitys new Las Vegas office.
Reid and Gov. Brian Sandoval, whose economic development team courted the San Mateo, Calif., company to establish a Nevada operation and shepherded it through the states tax incentives process, welcomed SolarCitys first 138 Nevada employees at the event.
Many of the new employees are Bay Area transplants, but the company promises hundreds of local construction jobs on the horizon as soon as the Nevada Public Utilities Commission delivers regulations on the broad-scale installation of solar panels on residences and businesses.
State officials expect the regulations process to take several months with publication by the second quarter of 2014.
Its really important that the way it gets implemented allows for rooftop solar panel installations, said SolarCity CEO Lyndon Rive.
Centralized solar power generation, as opposed to rooftop panels linked into the grid, generally is favored by utility companies for competitive reasons. The first workshop meeting on Nevadas regulations is Aug. 29.
But once rooftop installations happen, the market will boom, Rive said.
Sandoval said the installation of rooftop solar systems would boost Southern Nevadas construction industry.
Its continuous construction, Sandoval said. Its not one big project and were done. Its small rooftop jobs that will require hiring electricians and roofers.
SolarCity already is partnering with homebuilder Shea Homes to build more than 100 solar projects in Nevada housing communities.
SolarCity currently has a back-of-the-house team of sales representatives serving 14 states from the Town Square office formerly occupied by the Las Vegas Metro Chamber of Commerce, which subleased the 28,000 square feet.
Reids contribution to the solar energy collaboration was his support of 2008 legislation to extend federal tax credits for residential and commercial solar installations.
Speaking at the ribbon-cutting, Reid said he cant wait for Nevada to become a fantastic solar state and energy independent. Because Southern Nevada has sunny days 85 percent of an average year, the area has explosive growth potential for solar energy.
Rive predicted SolarCitys Nevada operation could become the companys largest. He said that once the Public Utilities Commissions regulations are approved, it would only take three to six months for the company to fill local warehouse and distribution positions and train workers on installations."
And is this a link to why the BLM wants the rancher Bundy gone?:
Bureau of Land Management Hiding Behind Toothless Tortoise
04/12/2014 5:06:42 AM PDT · by iontheball · 14 replies
CFP ^ | April 12, 2014 | Judi McCleod
A June 1990 study, called The Desert Tortoise in Relation to Cattle Grazing by Vernon Bostick formerly posted to the University of Arizona website (and still found through Google) should prove once and for all the incredible stupidity of the bumbling bureaucrats with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The BLMs self-proclaimed Save the Tortoise balderdash is killing off both the tortoise and cows:
Love to see that Desert Landscape compared in the same 3D perspective with the Ranch in question.....
I think “renewable energy” has its sites set on a lot of land out West.
Rancher Cliven Bundy seems to have drawn a line in the sand.
Exactly. It’s fascinating to me that FReepers routinely excoriate a guy who is revolutionizing the automobile and the space industry.
LAS VEGAS, March 21, 2013SolarCity® (Nasdaq: SCTY), a leading provider of clean energy, announced that it plans to open a new location in Nevada, and expects to create hundreds of jobs in the state in the next several years. SolarCitys expansion is due in large part to the efforts of Governor Brian Sandoval and the Nevada Office of Economic Development.
The approval today of SolarCitys Catalyst Fund application, represents the successful collaborative effort that took place between local, regional and state economic development agencies, Governor Brian Sandoval said. I am excited to welcome SolarCity to the Nevada family.
The new location will initially house new expansions of key administrative divisions, including portions of the companys sales, asset management and customer care groups. SolarCitys first solar projects in the state are also underwaythe company is building more than 100 solar projects in Nevada housing communities in partnership with Shea Homes.
SolarCity is changing the way families and businesses across the country can benefit from clean energy and I am pleased that such an innovative company is coming to Nevada, said Nevada Senator Harry Reid. I was able to help pass an eight-year extension of the federal tax credits for residential and commercial solar installations in 2008 which has been instrumental in creating jobs across Nevada and the nation. I hope that SolarCitys expansion will help Nevada create the regulatory and business certainty needed to continue to take advantage of Nevadas abundant solar energy resources.
Nevada receives among the greatest amount of direct sunlight of any state in the U.S. Though Nevada hosts a handful of large solar power plants, the states potential for distributed residential and commercial solar power generation is largely untapped and has tremendous room for growth.
With its solar resource, Nevada has an opportunity to be a national leader in distributed renewable power generation, said Lyndon Rive, CEO of SolarCity. We expect todays announcement to initially create more than 100 jobs, but a sustainable local solar industry could create thousands of jobs. We hope to partner with the state and industry to create the business and regulatory certainty that can pave the way for a thriving local solar economy.
SolarCity is currently scouting locations in Nevada and expects to begin hiring soon. Candidates can email SolarCity directly about employment opportunities in Nevada at email@example.com.
This release contains forward-looking statements including, but not limited to, statements regarding the expected number of new jobs, the future growth of solar generation in the region and other future business opportunities. Forward-looking statements should not be read as a guarantee of future performance or results, and will not necessarily be accurate indications of the times at, or by, which such performance or results will be achieved, if at all. Forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual performance or results to differ materially from those expressed in or suggested by the forward looking statements. You should read the section entitled Risk Factors in SolarCitys registration statement on Form S-1, which has been filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission and identifies certain of these and additional risks and uncertainties. SolarCity does not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement, whether as a result of new information, future developments or otherwise."
“...........Nevada Sen. Harry Reid is a big advocate of clean energy and hosts a National Clean Energy Summit every August in Las Vegas; Musk spoke at the summit in 2012. And Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval has met with executives from Tesla to make the state’s case to be the site of the Gigafactory.
“Tesla is an exceptional company, and we are honored to be included in their list of finalists,” said Steve Hill, director of Sandoval’s Office of Economic Development. “Our office has been working with the regional development authorities and local governments to highlight what Nevada offers: a skilled workforce, responsive workforce development and training programs, exceptional quality of life, great schools, low operating costs, and a commitment from the state of Nevada to provide the climate necessary for innovative businesses to thrive.”.....
“......In November, SolarCity announced that the contract would move forward, as a debit and finance deal with Bank of America Merrill Lynch. Why would Bank of America take that risk? The undeniable conclusion is that tax benefits drive this plan. SolarCity and the other major solar companies have routinely found financial partners such as Google, U.S. Bancorp, Credit Suisse and Citigroup. Heck, even Al Gore is a major investor in SolarCity.
Despite losing the loan guarantee, SolarCity still wins big at taxpayer expense by leasing these systems back to the US government. The $1 billion dollar military projects contract from the government to SolarCiry demonstrates that despite the failure of projects like Solyndra, Obama continues to support his green energy cronies. When you follow the trail, its no surprise groups like Organizing for Action are joining the net metering debate here in Arizona.”......
“......The absence of signed contracts, however, has not prevented elected officials from publicly promoting the deals and taking credit for government-subsidized job creation in high-profile press events.
At an Aug. 14 ribbon cutting in Las Vegas for a new office of Catalyst Fund recipient SolarCity, Gov. Sandoval was flanked by U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, U.S. Representative Joe Heck, Clark County Commissioner Steve Sisolak and five state legislators.
Reid, according to Las Vegas CBS KXNT, said Nevada had spared the company the bureaucratic garbage it might have encountered in the other states. SolarCity, which received a $1.2 million GOED award, is also a major recipient of federal largesse.
Previously, in June, Nevada Journal in accord with Nevadas Public Records Act had requested copies of all signed agreements, which would have included SolarCitys $1.2 million GOED subsidy.....”
Thus Dirty Harry is getting the BLM to persecute Bundy so that he and his son can get rich from “selling” federal land to the Chinese to build this plant?
And how many more birds and animals are going to be fried to death by this solar array like are being killed by other solar arrays and the “blessed wind turbines.”
Super, or ultra capacitors still do not have the energy density of a battery. What they have is the ability to discharge copious amperage. I imagine a modern electric car like tesla uses both ultra capacitors and lithium ion batteries.
If mush had done this with no government subsidies and crooked politicians I would not care. Clinton gave three billion to the Detroit Big three to develop hybrids. Toyota put a million on the road with their own money.
No desert tourtoises on his scrap of land there?
How exactly do electric vehicles benefit us? Emissions? Is this a global warming thing? (I mean, climate change).
It looks like its on pyramid hwy.
Tax incentive programs = corruption.
Bingo! We have a winner.
BLM just called off their armed dogs in Nevada. Fox News just carried this news at 12:50 pm EST — BLM has canceled their operation against Mr. Bundy
Well, that is good news. Thanks for posting it.
Thank you for the news.
Mr. Bundy’s character and cause was sucking all the air out of the MSM propaganda machine.
I wonder who made the call to withdraw. It would be instructive to know all the interested parties who set this in motion.
Aircraft pilots and others are complaining BIG time about simple handheld lasers shined into their windows from the ground.
Imagine the heat blast from a misaligned mirror assembly!