The Church’s new LGBT edict is confusing and ill-timed

NY Post ^ | 23 December A.D. 2023 | Mark Bauerlein

[af_vet_1981]

but if CNN says "Hey, the Pope's all for gay marriage" they'll respond, "See! I knew it.

Actually the Pope is for the civil equivalent of marriage between homosexuals. “Instead, he favored extending legal protections to gay couples under what is understood in Argentina as a civil union law.” - 2020 and Vatican tried to explain then he was not for homosexual “marriage.”

[Road Warrior ‘04]

Renouncing my Catholicism until the Communist Pope is dead!

[lightman]

Cross the Bosporus....come home to Orthodoxy!

[GOP_Party_Animal]

Do you think the Apostle Paul was out of line to criticize the Apostle Peter?

Here again, differentiate between criticizing the Pope, and holding the Catholic Church accountable for his absurd statements. Bigots see what they want in his ambiguous proclamations (the confusion serves his purposes) and use those statements to bolster their hatred for the Church.

Do you deny the bishop of Rome has the authority to change what the church of Rome is allowed to do ?

Yes, and any Catholic worth his salt will tell you that a Pope cannot change fundamental Church teaching. Yes, Francis would like to declare a gay union a marriage. He has shown he would also remove all stigma from divorce too. The best he can do is create confusion and encourage defacto changes. He's a horrible leader and will have to answer for what he's done.

[af_vet_1981]

Here again, differentiate between criticizing the Pope, and holding the Catholic Church accountable for his absurd statements.

Is that like criticizing the High Priest in Jerusalem and holding the Jews accountable for the Roman crucifixion of the Messiah ?

Does a pope have the power to demote those who disagree with him, promote those who agree, and rewrite the Catechism ?

Who gets to define "Church teaching" if not the pope and cardinals ? If a bishop protests (cue Bishop Strickland for example), he can be silenced or removed. The bishops are rather quiet now, are they not ? Has EWTN or Catholic Answers protested ?

[af_vet_1981]

Blessing Same-Sex Couples: a CA Roundtable The latest bombshell from Rome has the whole Church talking. Here's what we think.


This week, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) published the declaration Fiducia Supplicans (FS), which reflects on the theology of blessing and, for the first time, sanctions clerical blessings of same-sex couples and mixed-sex couples in irregular unions. This has sparked no little controversy, particularly since that same dicastery ruled out, with the pope’s approval, the possibility of any such blessings just two years ago. The implications of the change are complex and far-reaching. In this Catholic Answers Roundtable, we offer perspectives from Catholic Answers staff on this text and what it means.

• Trent Horn, apologist This document, in principle, is orthodox, because it speaks of sinners seeking “spontaneous” blessings in order to live better lives, which is not a problem. But something can be technically true and yet confuse people and lead to scandal if it is uttered without qualification.
  
  
• Drew Belsky, content editor Catholics undergoing a crisis of confidence after Fiducia Supplicans are in good company—or at least I hope so, because they’re in my company.
  
  It’s not the first time. I remember feeling pierced when Amoris Laetitia came out—this when someone close to me, in whose spiritual good I was very much invested, had just finished several years of grueling work to repair an “irregular” adulterous situation. A big part of that long restoration involved forgoing Communion, every Sunday, for years. I read Amoris and thought, aggrieved, Why this heroic work? Why bother?
  
  
  
  
• Karlo Broussard, apologist Fiducia Supplicans has caused quite a stir. As always, there’s a need for clarity. So let’s begin with a distinction.
  
  As many have noted, it’s one thing for a priest to bless an immoral relationship, whether it involves people of the opposite sex or same sex, and it’s another thing to give a “simple blessing” (38) to persons who happen to be living in such immorality. The former seeks to legitimize the relationship itself. The latter implores God to give the actual graces needed for the couple to live in accord with God’s will.
  
  
  Cy Kellett, host, Catholic Answers Live I have been traveling more than usual the last two months, visiting parishes in various places around the country, and, of course, I get to talk with Catholics every day on the radio.
  
  With this experience in mind, I must admit, I wince a little whenever Pope Francis makes the news. He once asked young people to go make a mess, and the man follows his own advice. Although I believe there is some method to his mess-making—he clearly believes that Christianity is in a kind of doldrums and needs to be aroused to face new challenges amidst new realities—I also think that his method involves “creative destruction.”
  
  He imposes heavy burdens. He must know that his actions will create immense noise and confusion, and yet he asks the faithful to remain sanguine despite it all.
  
  Is that fair?
  
  At every talk I give, I meet people who are at their wits‘ end with Francis and people who are at their wits‘ end with those who oppose Francis. Everybody seems on edge. This isn’t helping.
  
  Fiducia Supplicans, in my view, is basically correct in its approach to blessings—if what it’s saying is that Pope Francis wants people to receive the blessings of the Church without priests actually blessing sinful unions. But it will take a generation, at least, for the Church to work through all the creative interpretations and abuses that will now follow.
  
  
  
• So we are left with a painful puzzle to faithful Catholics: why would Rome cause scandal? Did it not know what consequences FS would produce? Or were these consequences known—and assented to beforehand—as something good? Are they unaware of the moral context—widespread acceptance of unchaste same-sex relationships—into which FS would land?
  
  One telltale sign (and not of the Holy Spirit): the word repent is noticeably absent from the document. Oremus.

[Dick Vomer]

The Pope is a homosexual, communist that has been compromised and covers for the financial and moral rot in the church.

Not one priest has the stones to walk up to a church, nail a list of grievances on the front door and walk away from the church. He is NOT the shepherd who guides us in troubled times. He’s NOT the protector of children from pederast homosexual wolves prowling the Vatican, the parishes and seminaries.

He is concerned about “worldly” matters and not spiritual matters. God will punish this so called “man” for distorting the word of God and leading his children off the path.

[Elsie]

Ebb; you got beat out posting THIS story!

[Elsie]

Genesis 18:21 niv

I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

[Elsie]

Ezekiel 23:20 niv

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

[Elsie]

True, there could be three or more in a polyamory situation.

[Elsie]

yup

and sometimes change isn’t in an instant.

[Elsie]

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

  9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
      Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

[Elsie]

The implication that Jesus and the writers of New Testament did not speak clearly on this topic is unsupportable.

Here's some OT and some NT on the subject:

 

We are living in a Genesis 19:9 world...

 

"Get out of our way,” they replied.
“This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge!
We’ll treat you worse than them.”
They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

 

---

 

Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

---

Leviticus niv

18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. 

           They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

 

---

---

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them;

they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it.

Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

================================================

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight.

They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

================================================

Ezekiel 16:49-50  "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom:

She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

They were haughty and did detestable things before me.

 Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 

---

Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

---

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

What kind of a people are we;

that we allow men dressed in womens clothes

to pervert the minds of little children?

---

DEUTERONOMY 22:5  KJV

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man,
neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them;

they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it.

Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

================================================

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight.

They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

================================================

Ezekiel 16:49-50  "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom:

She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

They were haughty and did detestable things before me.

 Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 

---

Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

---

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

What kind of a people are we;

that we allow men dressed in womens clothes

to pervert the minds of little children?

---

DEUTERONOMY 22:5  KJV

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man,
neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:
for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

[Elsie]

What will you do until then?

[Elsie]

Who gets to define "Church teaching" if not the pope and cardinals ?

Are they also permitted to REDEFINE it?

[Maris Crane]

It’s NOT THE CHURCH’S NEW EDICT...IT IS THE PRETENDER POPE’S.

We are NOT going to stand for his idiotic pronouncements.

HE HAS NO BUSINESS GETTING INTO THIS!

He is supposed to be dealing with POSITIONS OF FAITH AND DOCTRINE.

[Road Warrior ‘04]

I’ll do Lutheran. After all, Martin Luther left the Catholic Church because he didn’t believe in some of the teachings of the Catholic Church way back then.

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

How like the postmodern world is to an earlier verse: "There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they devour people, take treasures and precious things and make many widows within her."

Best wishes and thanks for sharing the verse from Ezekiel. And for the rather broad brush of gathering together graphics and citations, later in this thread.

[siunevada]

I remember seeing him on EWTN long before John Paul II died.

I wasn’t impressed.

He was definitely a politically correct candidate for Pope.

Meh. We’ve had worse. All his gobbledegook will end up as an obscure footnote with time. None of it compels anyone to think the way he does.