Posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
In the year 1531 in Mexico, the Holy Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego, a peasant who was converting to Catholicism. It was the 9th of December, the original feast day of the Immaculate Conception, when Juan Diego was on his way to the Church for instruction and to hear Holy Mass. Juan heard someone calling him "Juanito...Juan Dieguito." Juan Diego looked to the top of Tepeyac Hill and saw a lady of overpowering brillance and beauty, who's garments shone like the sun. She appeared to be about 14 years old.
The Lady introduced herself in these words: "Know for certain, dearest of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God, through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things, who is Master of Heaven and Earth. I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me where I will show and offer all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful Mother, the Mother of all who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear there weeping and sorrows, and will remedy and alleviate their sufferings, necessites and misfortunes." She told Juan Diego to go the Bishop Zumarraga and tell him what he had seen and heard.
Juan Diego bowed reverently and said "My Holy One, my Lady, I will do what you ask of me."
Bishop Zumarraga had been sent by Spain to the New World to convert and instruct the native people. At that time in Mexico human sacrifice to the gods Quetelcoatl and Coatlicue, and various other pagan gods were occuring, as many as 20,000 victims would be sacrificed at the dedication of a temple.
Bishope Zumarraga had not been having much success converting the Aztec and native people and distrust and anger was spreading amongst the two. He had been praying to God for assistance and a sign, the sign was that of roses. Roses would be the sign that Bishop Zumarraga wanted in order to know that he was doing the right thing. But now it was December and roses were not blooming.
Juan Diego arrived and was greeted by the Bishop. The Bishop welcomed him warmly but upon hearing his story dismissed him pleasantly. Juan Diego thought he had failed and after hearing Mass and instruction returned to his home.
Our Lady appeared to him again, asking him if he had had success with the Bishop. Juan told Our Lady that he did not think the Bishop believed him and that perhasps she should send someone of greater importance. Our Lady smiled at Juan Diego, telling him that she had chosen him to be the deliverer of the message and urged him to return to the Bishop the next day and again make the request.
Juan Diego did return the next day and again gave the Bishop the message. Bishop Zumarraga was surprised to see Juan Diego again so soon. He questioned him a bit at length and again dismissed him. Now he wondered if there were something too Juans message. Before dismissing Juan Diego the Bishop told Juan that he needed a sign from the Lady to be convinced. Juan asked the Bishop what kind of sign he would like and he would tell the Lady the Bishops reequest. The Bishop told Juan that he would leave the sign up to the Lady to deliver.
On his way back home Juan Diego again encountered Our Lady. He told her that the Bishop had requested a sign but did not say what the sign should be. Our Lady told Juan: "That is very well,my little son, return here tomorrow and you will have the sign he requested." She also told him that he would be rewarded for all he had done on her behalf.
When Dec. 11th came Juan Diegos uncle, Juan Bernardino, was gravely ill and Juan Diego stayed by his side and did not go to the Bishop. All night he prayed and attended to his uncle until the morning of the 12th when his uncle took a turn for the worse. Juan wanted to get a priest to enable his uncle to recieve the sacraments before he died.
Juan now had a dilemma, if he went past Tepeyac hill he was sure to encounter the Lady. He wanted to get the priest in order to bring him to his uncle before he died but did not want to disappoint Our Lady so he decided to go around the other side of Tepeyac hill. He thought that surely Our Lady would understand.
As Juan Diego tried to duck Our Lady he was suddenly intercepted by her, as she called out to him "What is the matter my little son?" "Where are you going?" Juan explained to the Lady "Noble Lady, it will grieve you to hear what I have to say. My uncle, your poor servant, is very sick. He is suffering from the plague and is dying. I am hurrying to the Church in Mexico City to call a priest to here his confession and give him the last rites. When I have done this, I will return here immediately to convey your message." "Please forgive me and be patient with me. I am not decieving you. I promise to faithfully come here tomorrow with all haste."
There was a pause. Our Lady looked at Juan Diego and uttered the words that have rung down through nearly 5 centuries. "Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son, do not be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?" She then assured Juan that his uncle would not die from his illeness and at this very moment was cured.
She told Juan to go to the top of Tepeyac Hill and pick as many flowers as he could carry and bring them down to her. Juan climbed the hill and could not believe the multitude of Castilian Roses blooming on the top. They were blooming out of season. He gathered as many as he could carry and brought them down to Our Lady, who arranged them in his tilma (poncho made of cactus plant fibers. Our Lady arranged them and folded them up in Juans tilma. She told him that this was the sign that the Bishop wanted and to take them to him.
Juan Diego finally got in to see the Bishop with his bundle. The Bishop recieved Juan and Juan told him the following. "Your Excellency, I obeyed your instructions, very early this morning, the celestial Lady told me to come and see you again. I asked for the sign which you requested and which she had promised to give me. She told me to climb to the top of the hill where I had previously seen her, to pick the flowers growing there. I knew quite well that the summit of the hill was no place for flowers to grow, especially this time of year, but I did not doubt her word. When I reached the top, I was astonised to find myself surrounded by beautiful flowers. I plucked as many as I could carry and brought them back to her. She arranged them with her own hands and replaced them in my robe in order that I might bring them to you. Here they are. Behold, recieve them." With that Juan Diego released the ends of his tilma and the flowers, mingled with Castillian Roses, cascaded to the floor in a profusion of colour and perfume.
Zumarraga gazed speechless at the roses, the sign that he had been praying for peace in the country. Full of wonder he lifted his eyes back up to Juan Diego to find that the tilma now had an image of Our Lady appearing on it.
From that day, December 12th 1531, the tilma has survived, miraculously. At that time 8 million Mexicans and Aztec Indians converted to Catholicism. The human sacrifice to the pagan gods ceased.
For nearly 500 years there have been miracles through Our Lady and the tilma. Scientists have studied it, socialist revolutionaries tried to destroy it, there have been volumes written about the tilma, which is very much like the Shroud of Turin.
On this feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which means to the Aztecs "she who crushes the head of the serpent" I would urge you to read the story, say some special prayers to Our Lady, particularly to end the human sacrifice of abortion in this country.
btw I have not posted a word about my beliefs on the subject, just my disappointment at what you think is funny. Good luck to you.
Go to Post #71 where patriot71 makes the following statement:
I do, however, have problems with those who believe something and then try to pass it off as sound Christian theology, and then get pi$$ed when you point out that's it not sound, nor is it Biblical at all.
Biblewonk then says "the OTHER thing they do..."
He agrees with him.
Look, I'll be totally honest with you. I am an evangelical Christian, have done some research into the RCC using their own material - the online Catholic encyclopedia, RCC catechism etc - and I have some serious issues with a lot of it. I'm not here to attack you, always like a constructive discussion, but just wanted to be honest up front. I don't usually post on these threads, but your post caught my eye and raised questions.
That said, I am not familiar with the Guadalupe appearance (I have read about others, approved ones and otherwise) - Mary appears pregnant? WHY would she do that? Jesus is the risen Lord - He is not in the womb. That seems counterproductive to me, as if He is hidden away and the emphasis is taken away from Him. And to say she is a living tabernacle is a little hard to handle - maybe she was at one time, but she is no longer pregnant - why be represented as such?
Also, you said that you know that if a church is built, Jesus is there in the tabernacle. Are you referring to the temple that Mary requested be built to her? If so, why does she not say that he is to build a temple for Jesus? Is His presence to be assumed, as you said? Again the emphasis is drawn away.
In the Gospel, the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, Mary brought Jesus to us when she said yes to God. Mary also brings Jesus to us when she appears, just like she did at Guadalupe. We can be like Elizabeth when Mary went to visit her, or like John the Baptist who was sanctified in Elizabeths womb when Mary spoke to her.
If Mary had said no, God would have found another willing vessel and we would be talking about her right now instead, don't you think? So in that sense, Mary didn't "bring" Jesus to us. And why does she need to bring Jesus to us when she appears? Especially in the form of an unborn child. Where is the gospel message in that? In fact, since I am not familiar with the Guadalupe appearance, is the gospel message found in Mary's words at all?
No doubt you didn't expect to get into this when you made your post. :) Honestly no attack intended, just seeking perspective for stuff I find incredible. And I find the fact that Jesus is not mentioned at all to be pretty hard to accept. You'd think that Mary's presence/involvement would be the one that was assumed rather than focused on. Sorry, the questions just sort of snowballed. Thanks.
Y'all go there ya'here!
That being said, yes, you are right, Jesus is the risen Lord, I agree 100%. Interesting we are in the Christmas season and there are mangers all over showing the Infant Jesus. We all know that Jesus is not an infant anymore so why do we depict Him as such? It helps us remember.
Our Lady of Guadalupe is also known as Our Lady of the Americas. Perhaps God in His wisdom chose to present Mary pregnant because He forsaw that the great evil of abortion would shadow our land. Also, there are pictures of Jesus with His Mother when he was an infant, a child, a young man, after His death and after His resurrection. I suppose only God knows why He chose to depict Our Lady this way. I don't believe that it takes anything away from Jesus, do you? After all, Jesus was concieved in Mary's womb.
The Church that was built was not 'for' Mary. I'm sure you've noticed that most Catholic Church's are named after saints, I for instance attend St. Anthony of Padua, we honor saints by naming Church's after them, thats all. It is not 'for' them, the Church's are for the people to come together in. Jesus is always present in the tabernacle.
Where is the Gospel message of Jesus in Mary's womb? (I think that was your last question) In Luke. When Mary went 'with haste' to her cousin Elizabeth and John the Baptist was sanctified when Mary spoke to Elizabeth. "the moment your greeting sounded in my ears, the child within me leapt for joy."
Perhaps you will hear Our Lady's voice and Jesus will bless you also, as He sanctified John the Baptist, when He was still in His Mother's womb.
And of course there are people who do not believe it, and they do not have too, thats fine with me.
I believe it, millions of others believe it. Pope John Paul II believes it, thats enough for me.
Thanks Cap'n. I did not know that.
Our Lord will certainly thank you some day for so strongly defending his mother!
That being said, yes, you are right, Jesus is the risen Lord, I agree 100%. Interesting we are in the Christmas season and there are mangers all over showing the Infant Jesus. We all know that Jesus is not an infant anymore so why do we depict Him as such? It helps us remember.
We are human, and we tend to need remembrences for different things. We commemorate many things for various reasons - that was not my question. I asked why MARY would present herself this way. If your answer is that possibly she herself knew that we would need a reminder, then I say that there are far more suitable reminders of the gospel - namely the risen Lord Himself...which brings us back around to my initial question - if Jesus is not shown in the message, how will others know He is there?
Where is the Gospel message of Jesus in Mary's womb? (I think that was your last question) In Luke. When Mary went 'with haste' to her cousin Elizabeth and John the Baptist was sanctified when Mary spoke to Elizabeth. "the moment your greeting sounded in my ears, the child within me leapt for joy."
No, I think you misunderstood. I was not asking where in Mary's womb was the gospel message, I was asking where in the Guadalupe message from Mary do we find the gospel message. Where in Mary's words do we find that she explains that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life? Rather we see her claiming to be everything that we need in and of herself. If you think that is a stretch, I reference the words of your post -
"Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son, do not be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?"
Here she says that she can keep him from illness, worry and pain. She can protect him and maintain his life. She asks if there is anything else that he needs, totally suggesting that she can provide it, whatever it may be. NO mention of Jesus Christ as the provider of anything. One not familiar with Christianity would in no way glean His presence in this message. It is simply not possible.
But to answer your answer - I see nothing in your Luke reference which indicates the gospel message as we find it in, for example, John 3.
One other comment, as I read again the words of Mary, with regard to the temple you said
The Church that was built was not 'for' Mary. I'm sure you've noticed that most Catholic Church's are named after saints, I for instance attend St. Anthony of Padua, we honor saints by naming Church's after them, thats all. It is not 'for' them, the Church's are for the people to come together in. Jesus is always present in the tabernacle.
However, Mary herself said
"...I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me where I will show and offer all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful Mother, the Mother of all who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear there weeping and sorrows, and will remedy and alleviate their sufferings, necessites and misfortunes."
SHE will offer all HER love, HER compassion, HER help, HER protection. He is to love HER, cry out to HER, have confidence in HER. SHE will hear their crying, SHE will ease their pain, SHE will provide their necessities and SHE will rectify their misfortunes. She said she wanted a temple built FOR HER, and then proceeded to say what SHE would do in it if obeyed, not what Jesus would do, not even what Jesus would do through her. It certainly sounds like the temple is for her, and once again, Jesus is sorely lacking, and to the uninformed potential convert, there is NO way that Jesus would be found in what is given.
Thanks for the response.
Sounds like it's all about HER! She's beginning to look like a Clinton... (Has she requested a library?)
Just being,
Go ahead and believe what you believe, but don't disrespect my religion. I don't need you to try to save my soul because God already sent His Only beloved Son and He gave him a real human mother. Not someone to worship but yes, someone to love, respect and emulate.
Woman Who Says Yes
"Mary, maiden true,
Woman who says yes,
Pray for us now
And at the hour of our death.
Please, bring us to Jesus, our Lord and Master true.
Your Son and your God,
The One for W.hom you live.
In the fullness of our time,
A woman bore a son.
Found to be with child but protected by her husband's love,
She dared to say: "yes" to the angel's way;
Such courage, and strength, and grace!
"Mary, be not afraid",
Were Gabriel's words that day,
"Highly favored one, pure bearer of the Holy Son.
Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Covered by His Love.
Magnify the Lord now,
Bring joy to everyone.
Fr. Jim McKearney
I would instead ask, why has God always used humans? Everyone knows that He could have done it all Himself. We understand and believe that there is an omnipotent God, but as humans we relate with and better understand relationships with humans. If you were truly knowledgable about Salvation History you would know that Mary always leads people to her Son. That God used her as a conduit that humans can understand and relate to.
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