Posted on 08/07/2002 6:24:01 AM PDT by jalisco555
INSIDE
When a Syracuse man was struck last week by a bullet fired through the ceiling of his apartment, it marked the third time in eight years that an Onondaga County probation officer had unintentionally discharged one of the department-issued Glock pistols.
Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department's revolvers.
The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed.
A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.
"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."
On July 30, Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor of her second-story apartment at 1904 James St. The bullet struck her downstairs neighbor, Michael Chapman, in the chest as he was making dinner in his kitchen. Chapman's condition improved from critical to serious this week at University Hospital.
Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.
In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock. In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club.
The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.
"We took a look at what went on," Czaplicki said. "We had a group of people look at it. It raised some red flags."
The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.
Cominolli, who is retired from the police, has designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glock pistols. Last year, he talked to Czaplicki about adding the device to the probation department's guns.
Czaplicki said the county then talked with Glock officials about having the device installed. But the county rejected the idea after Glock said it would void the warranty on the guns if the safeties were added, Czaplicki said.
Czaplicki said his department is reconsidering the safeties in light of last week's unintentional discharge that injured Chapman.
Cominolli said he knows of dozens of "unintentional discharges" of Glocks in Central New York over the past 15 years, and estimates there have been thousands across the country. He won't refer to them as accidents because that implies the shootings could not have been prevented.
Syracuse police use Smith & Wesson firearms.
No national statistics are available on which manufacturer's handgun has the most unintentional firings. The Washington Post reported in 1998 that District of Columbia officers, who use Glock 9mm handguns, unintentionally fired their weapons more than 120 times over 10 years.
In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C.
Despite that report, the FBI issues Glocks to its agents.
Last week, a Queens corrections officer fatally shot his son while the officer was unloading his 9mm Glock handgun in his home, according to Newsday. A police chief in Coral Gables, Fla., accidentally fired his .40-caliber Glock last month into his locker at a health club, according to The Miami Herald.
The Onondaga County Sheriff's Department, which has used Glocks since 1992, has had at least three unintentional discharges with the weapon, according to Lt. Thomas Morehouse, a firearms instructor. A deputy fired a shot that grazed his hand in 1992. A detective fired a round into the floor of his patrol car a few years ago. And a deputy accidentally pulled the trigger three years ago and fired a round into the ground at the training range, Morehouse said.
In December, an Oswego County sheriff's deputy accidentally fired his Glock handgun into the foot of a security officer at a nuclear power plant.
Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.
'Brain fade' protection
That's why he designed the safety device and is marketing it to police agencies and private gun owners across the country. With the safety on, the trigger bar inside the gun can't move.
"If you have a brain fade and pull the trigger, it won't go bang," Cominolli said.
Newly hired probation officers in Onondaga County must carry a firearm after undergoing 35 hours of training on the shooting range and 14 hours in the classroom, Czaplicki said. Veteran officers in the department have the option of carrying a gun. Probation officers are trained by the department's two state-certified firearms instructors, he said. Forty-one of the county's 84 probation officers now carry a gun on the job. All carry Glocks.
In response to last week's shooting, the department is reviewing its training procedures, Czaplicki said. He wouldn't comment on details of the shooting, except to say it's certain that the trigger on the gun must have been pulled. Initial police reports erroneously said the gun had fired when the officer dropped it.
Mark Doneburgh, Glock's district manager for the Syracuse area, was an Onondaga County sheriff's deputy 14 years ago when he first looked at Glocks. He questioned whether they could hold up because they're made of plastic, so he took the gun up in a helicopter and dropped it to the ground. It didn't break and didn't fire, he said.
Glock doesn't fit its guns with manual safety switches because the guns have three internal "passive" safeties, Doneburgh said. Those safeties automatically disengage when someone pulls the trigger, but they prevent the gun from firing when it's dropped or when the trigger gets bumped from the side.
Remembering the safety
Glocks are popular with police because the revolvers they replaced had no manual safeties, he said. The fear was that officers would have trouble getting used to having to turn off the safety in a gunfight, Doneburgh said. He studied the Glock for the sheriff's department.
"We needed a gun that we could easily transition my people with and that they could feel confident with," he said. "It's a draw, point and shoot gun."
Onondaga County Corrections Commissioner Timothy Cowin said he would not outfit his officers with Glocks until they were fitted with Cominolli's manual safety last year.
"I've been in this business a long time, and I can tell you there are many, many accidental discharges that never get reported," Cowin said. "When people are holstering or drawing that weapon, they automatically put their finger in that trigger guard without even thinking about it."
With training, officers not accustomed to turning off a manual safety can make it a habit, Cowin said.
Cowin said it's unclear whether the added safety means Glock will no longer honor its warranty. He said he decided to make the change anyway because the weapon is unlikely to need any repairs that the correction department's own armorer can't fix.
Many accidental Glock discharges involve unloading. Doneburgh, who teaches gun safety courses at Onondaga Community College, said he always demanded perfection from his police recruits when they unloaded guns during firearms training.
"I used to tell them, No. 1, 'mag' out," he said of the need to remove the magazine before clearing the chamber. "I told them, 'Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off.' And they believed me. Hopefully, that's going to stay with them for 20 years."
Never found liable
Glock doesn't fit its guns with safeties because many police officers are used to not having to switch them off and because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said.
"We've never lost a lawsuit," he said. Doneburgh said he didn't know how many lawsuits the company had settled, and a lawyer for Glock could not be reached for comment.
Cominolli said he's sold between 600 to 800 of the safeties to police agencies and private gun owners in the first year and has orders for more. He charges $75 a gun for law enforcement agencies. Local Glock owners can buy the device at Ra-Lin Discount in Syracuse.
The Kenmore Police Department, near Buffalo, wouldn't have bought Glocks without the added safeties, Cominolli said.
Twelve of the 17 police departments in Onondaga County, including the sheriff's department and state police, issue Glocks to their officers. The only ones that don't are Syracuse, DeWitt, Baldwinsville, North Syracuse and East Syracuse, Doneburgh said.
DeWitt police Capt. Bruce Wahl said he chose the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic partly because it has a manual safety and another safety that makes the gun inoperable without the magazine. Officials at other police agencies, such as Camillus, said they've never had an unintentional firing of a Glock.
"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.
He said he's heard reports of a Glock being unintentionally fired, and each time it's because someone messed up; the gun itself has never malfunctioned.
"We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity," he said. "You have to put warnings on things. You can't put your dog in a microwave oven to dry him. Common sense has to take over here."
The Sig is my handgun of choice, have worked with the P-220 extensively. In my experience its possible to learn transition from the first DA shot to SA and place all rounds very tight at realistic rapid gunfight ranges (seven to twenty-five yards IMO.)
If one gets shot in the arm it is difficult to rack the slide. It has been done using the holsters and in one case that I read about with the upper front teeth. Caused tooth damage but a dentist performed the repairs not a mortician.
Stay safe; stay armed.
Artillery brings dignity to an otherwise vulgar brawl.
I had something happen to me with my Sig though, a few other guys had it happen also.
We were shooting on the range and practicing speed re-loads. I emptied one mag, inserted another mag and slapped it in the magazine well pretty hard. Apparently the extractor somehow hit the side of the first round and pierced it, causing the round to go off. The round partially ejected and was stuck on the extractor. Fragments of the casing hit me in the face but I wasn't injured.
I don't know if Sig has had any similar complaints but it happened to a few of us. Not long afterward we turned in the Sigs for the Glocks.
The range officer didn't know what caused it to happen, and I don't either, never did find out. I guess just a slam fire. Unusual that the casing blew up though.
Maybe someone with more experience knows what happened.
One of our guys had an interesting experience last week. Guys on the shift arrested a woman for robbery. She had a piece of junk .380. The officer took the mag out and operated the slide a few times to see if there was a round in the chamber. After he racked it a few times and let it go he had a slam fire and the weapon discharged. Apparently the extractor was faulty.
He goofed by not looking into the chamber.
The round went into the carpet. When he went out to the range the next week the range officer had carpet on his target. We're teasing him no end.
10-4 on the unloaded gun. There are several other techniques I learned for racking the slide one-handed via Gunsite. Their courses are excellent IMHO.
My next Sig will probably be a 220 (or a 239 in 357 Sig).
What model Sig and what ammo was it, if I can ask?
I agree with that. That's an ND waiting to happen. Glocks and Kahrs REQUIRE a quality holster than covers the trigger guard.
Off topic - the Drew Carey episode that's on right now on ABC has Oswald and Lewis as airport security screeners! ROFLOL! "Hey, at least we did find a polyp on that last guy"
The Glock will not fire unless you pull the trigger.
Adding various safeties will not completely overcome the problem of idiots who pull the trigger when they should not.
It is amazing how many cops forget that to unload a semi-auto you have to remove the magazine AND clear the chamber (take the bullet out of the barrel).
Maybe cops should be issued revolvers only.
Sig P226? It was the 9mm and I think we were firing Federal ammo. We've gone through so many different brands of ammo. I think it was the Federal hydro shoks.
There was a shooting in a city nearby here on a barricaded suspect. SWAT eventually went in and got into a shootout with the guy. Afterward during the investigation they counted all the holes from the rounds. There was a pretty good number of holes. What they found was the jackets were peeling off the (if I remember right) hydro shoks after they would hit something. (I know that doesnt have anything to do with what I experienced, just thought I'd throw it in for conversation)
Of course not, it just seems more than average.
If a civillian or a military man claims it was an 'accident', I am a little suspicious as to whether it really was a negligent discharge, or intentional.
If it was law enforcement I am more apt to say, "There but for the sake of 'DOH!' go I.
I know about lax, I've been handling guns since I was 16, and shamefacedly have to admit that in a moment of complete stupidity blew up my locker in the police basement.
I haven't lived that one down. And you ought to hear them hoot if I miss something, no matter what I'm shooting at, or what I'm shooting because I'm one of the snipers on the SWAT team.
I cranked off two at a moving pit bull a few weeks ago and missed. There still talking about that. A brother just can't get a break LOL.
Nowhere in the NRA Pistol syllabus is there any reference to anything close to Jeff Cooper rules.
I doubt that you are a NRA Certified Pistol Instructor.
If you were, you would know there is no longer any reference to any rules close to Jeff Cooper's rules.
The NRA used rules much like his rules 25 years ago,
however based on much statistical data on Safety, the rules have evolved to what they are today.
Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
If you need information about safety in shooting, please check with your Training Counselor who trained you
or contact the NRA Training site in Virginia.
I don't believe Jeff Cooper is the business of Gun Safety.
I do know that the NRA is in the business of Gun Safety and Marksmanship and have been for 130 years.
Learn Safe Shooting at LibertyNetwork
Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>
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