Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents

When a Syracuse man was struck last week by a bullet fired through the ceiling of his apartment, it marked the third time in eight years that an Onondaga County probation officer had unintentionally discharged one of the department-issued Glock pistols.

Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department's revolvers.

The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed.

A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.

"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."

On July 30, Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor of her second-story apartment at 1904 James St. The bullet struck her downstairs neighbor, Michael Chapman, in the chest as he was making dinner in his kitchen. Chapman's condition improved from critical to serious this week at University Hospital.

Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.

In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock. In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club.

The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.

"We took a look at what went on," Czaplicki said. "We had a group of people look at it. It raised some red flags."

The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.

Cominolli, who is retired from the police, has designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glock pistols. Last year, he talked to Czaplicki about adding the device to the probation department's guns.

Czaplicki said the county then talked with Glock officials about having the device installed. But the county rejected the idea after Glock said it would void the warranty on the guns if the safeties were added, Czaplicki said.

Czaplicki said his department is reconsidering the safeties in light of last week's unintentional discharge that injured Chapman.

Cominolli said he knows of dozens of "unintentional discharges" of Glocks in Central New York over the past 15 years, and estimates there have been thousands across the country. He won't refer to them as accidents because that implies the shootings could not have been prevented.

No national statistics are available on which manufacturer's handgun has the most unintentional firings. The Washington Post reported in 1998 that District of Columbia officers, who use Glock 9mm handguns, unintentionally fired their weapons more than 120 times over 10 years.

In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C.

Last week, a Queens corrections officer fatally shot his son while the officer was unloading his 9mm Glock handgun in his home, according to Newsday. A police chief in Coral Gables, Fla., accidentally fired his .40-caliber Glock last month into his locker at a health club, according to The Miami Herald.

The Onondaga County Sheriff's Department, which has used Glocks since 1992, has had at least three unintentional discharges with the weapon, according to Lt. Thomas Morehouse, a firearms instructor. A deputy fired a shot that grazed his hand in 1992. A detective fired a round into the floor of his patrol car a few years ago. And a deputy accidentally pulled the trigger three years ago and fired a round into the ground at the training range, Morehouse said.

In December, an Oswego County sheriff's deputy accidentally fired his Glock handgun into the foot of a security officer at a nuclear power plant.

Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.

That's why he designed the safety device and is marketing it to police agencies and private gun owners across the country. With the safety on, the trigger bar inside the gun can't move.

"If you have a brain fade and pull the trigger, it won't go bang," Cominolli said.

Newly hired probation officers in Onondaga County must carry a firearm after undergoing 35 hours of training on the shooting range and 14 hours in the classroom, Czaplicki said. Veteran officers in the department have the option of carrying a gun. Probation officers are trained by the department's two state-certified firearms instructors, he said. Forty-one of the county's 84 probation officers now carry a gun on the job. All carry Glocks.

In response to last week's shooting, the department is reviewing its training procedures, Czaplicki said. He wouldn't comment on details of the shooting, except to say it's certain that the trigger on the gun must have been pulled. Initial police reports erroneously said the gun had fired when the officer dropped it.

Mark Doneburgh, Glock's district manager for the Syracuse area, was an Onondaga County sheriff's deputy 14 years ago when he first looked at Glocks. He questioned whether they could hold up because they're made of plastic, so he took the gun up in a helicopter and dropped it to the ground. It didn't break and didn't fire, he said.

Glock doesn't fit its guns with manual safety switches because the guns have three internal "passive" safeties, Doneburgh said. Those safeties automatically disengage when someone pulls the trigger, but they prevent the gun from firing when it's dropped or when the trigger gets bumped from the side.

Glocks are popular with police because the revolvers they replaced had no manual safeties, he said. The fear was that officers would have trouble getting used to having to turn off the safety in a gunfight, Doneburgh said. He studied the Glock for the sheriff's department.

"We needed a gun that we could easily transition my people with and that they could feel confident with," he said. "It's a draw, point and shoot gun."

Onondaga County Corrections Commissioner Timothy Cowin said he would not outfit his officers with Glocks until they were fitted with Cominolli's manual safety last year.

"I've been in this business a long time, and I can tell you there are many, many accidental discharges that never get reported," Cowin said. "When people are holstering or drawing that weapon, they automatically put their finger in that trigger guard without even thinking about it."

With training, officers not accustomed to turning off a manual safety can make it a habit, Cowin said.

Cowin said it's unclear whether the added safety means Glock will no longer honor its warranty. He said he decided to make the change anyway because the weapon is unlikely to need any repairs that the correction department's own armorer can't fix.

Many accidental Glock discharges involve unloading. Doneburgh, who teaches gun safety courses at Onondaga Community College, said he always demanded perfection from his police recruits when they unloaded guns during firearms training.

"I used to tell them, No. 1, 'mag' out," he said of the need to remove the magazine before clearing the chamber. "I told them, 'Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off.' And they believed me. Hopefully, that's going to stay with them for 20 years."

Glock doesn't fit its guns with safeties because many police officers are used to not having to switch them off and because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said.

"We've never lost a lawsuit," he said. Doneburgh said he didn't know how many lawsuits the company had settled, and a lawyer for Glock could not be reached for comment.

Cominolli said he's sold between 600 to 800 of the safeties to police agencies and private gun owners in the first year and has orders for more. He charges $75 a gun for law enforcement agencies. Local Glock owners can buy the device at Ra-Lin Discount in Syracuse.

The Kenmore Police Department, near Buffalo, wouldn't have bought Glocks without the added safeties, Cominolli said.

Twelve of the 17 police departments in Onondaga County, including the sheriff's department and state police, issue Glocks to their officers. The only ones that don't are Syracuse, DeWitt, Baldwinsville, North Syracuse and East Syracuse, Doneburgh said.

DeWitt police Capt. Bruce Wahl said he chose the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic partly because it has a manual safety and another safety that makes the gun inoperable without the magazine. Officials at other police agencies, such as Camillus, said they've never had an unintentional firing of a Glock.

"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.

He said he's heard reports of a Glock being unintentionally fired, and each time it's because someone messed up; the gun itself has never malfunctioned.

"We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity," he said. "You have to put warnings on things. You can't put your dog in a microwave oven to dry him. Common sense has to take over here."

Sig P226? It was the 9mm and I think we were firing Federal ammo. We've gone through so many different brands of ammo. I think it was the Federal hydro shoks.

Thanks for the info. I haven't had any trouble with the hydra-shoks yet, but then again I typically fire the cheap stuff (CCI Blazer or Winchester White Box) at the range. Maybe I'll switch over to Speer Gold Dots for my SD ammo....

I think you just stepped in it.
First off, Jeff Cooper is on the Board of Directors of the NRA.
That said, let's look at the rules of the NRA and the Colonel's

Cooper's first rule is all guns are loaded. All the time. That's a mindset. Don't go around saying, "Oh, that one's unloaded so we can do something stupid. No. The attitude is all guns are loaded. Nowhere does he say, "Keep your guns loaded".
The NRA believes that all guns should be unloaded when they are not in use. Fine. I don't see the reason why any gun should be loaded if it's not being used. Just don't get into the habit of having your unloaded guns and your loaded guns. Some guns may look exactly alike. AND THAT HAS HAPPENED.

The second rule of Cooper's is: Don't point the gun at something you aren't willing to destroy which is exactly like the NRA's point the gun in a safe direction.

Cooper's and the NRA are in agreement with the third rule. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

Cooper's fourth rule is: Be sure of your target and what's behind it. The NRA doesn't mention this or if they do, you didn't mention it since I'm copying off your last comments

I'm not going to comment about one person and an organization. I know what works for me and I'll stay with those rules.

I believe if you practice with CCI and then use Speer for SD you'll notice little difference except the casing cover(brass vs aluminum) as they are both made by Blount and "sold" to ATK( http://www.blount.com/segcloseb.html ).

Q: How do folks know you own Glocks and are "safe"?

A: When you carry a cup of coffee, your finger points in the direction you are walking(becomes instinct when you have the bottom three fingers wrapped around anything including a coffee cup!).

....because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said.

The important thing to remember is that the manual safety switch is in the same exact place on every firearm ever produced, and that ever will be produced. It's between the ears of the person holding the gun.

Never put your finger on the trigger until the sights are on the target. This safety works every time.

Do ya remember those great little rubber dart guns ya played with as a youth. Ya wet the rubber tip, pushed it down the barrel till it clicked and then ya let er fly and stuck it to your bedroom window or sisters forehead ??

That is the exact same trigger on a glock IMHO. Check it out......Clear it , and dry fire it.....spoing spoing spoing......:o)

But the case here is idiots who are ill trained . There are a gazillion glocks in service with Military, LEO's and Civilians and as with any other firearm yer gonna have such incidents. This is just one more department wanting new firearms and is using their "misfires" to promote such a purchase.

I personally love the glock. It's accurate, reliable and is up to the wear and tear of day to day carry. I even named one of my rottweillers "Tenifer" !!! (Black, tough as hell and deadly when applied properly) I have half a dozen of em in assorted flavors and not one of em has ever given me a bit of trouble .....ever !

Stay Safe

"Bingo-the safety on the Glock is the same safety on revolvers-internal only."

Nothing in common. Double-action revolvers (only kind U.S. police have carried in decades) have a long, heavy trigger pull - minimizing chance of idiot shootings. DA semis like Sig without safety also have long, heavy trigger pull for first shot; some on all shots - also making accidents unlikely. But Glocks are single-action light, short trigger pull on all shots - without a safety.

I loved those spring action "dart guns" as a kid.

You could pull the rubber suction cups off, and get twice the distance and velocity from the hard plastic 6" long shanks when shooting your brother across the room.

Of course, the PC Police and Safety Nazis teamed up and banned them years ago. I found some bad current copies recently for my kids, but the "darts" were 3" long one piece soft plastic with about 1/10th the range and velocity of the originals. You can't even take off the suction cups.

I guess in my rush to reply, I did not express my self properly. What I meant, is the primary safety in both is the long pull that ensures the shooter has to want to pull the trigger to make it go bang. The Glock 5.5 pound pull does not quite meaure up to some revolvers 8-12 pd pulls , but Glock fixed that with the NY trigger units.

Not too argue, but to show my frame of reference, I remember some briefings and demos on SW revolvers and internal safeties. The instructor put a pencil through the barrel/cylinder, cocked the hammer, and tapped the trigger w/another pencil, releasing it and the hammer. The firing pin did not contact the pencil, showing you had to pull the trigger to get it to fire. When he pulled the trigger, the pencil flew out.

Once again the primary reason for unintentional discharges is the operator. The most importantt safety on any weapon is between the ears

No trouble from the Glocks, or from the Rotties? I've had to do some minor parts replacement, but as with the M1911A1 .45, every component part of a Glock can be removed and replaced without tools [okay, some folks count the Glosk factory pin puser as a *tool,* but it's certainly not necessary]

If it's a half-dozen trouble-free Glocks you've got, it sounds like you're in good shape, as I am with my 17. But if it's multiple obedient and well-behaved Rotties you have, let me know if you're ever blessed with pups....

-archy-/-

See also the details from the trial of Millington, TN police officer Peter Nichelson, convicted last year of criminally negligent homicide for the fatal 1997 shooting of 17-year-old Rodie Dale Gossett.

Gossett was hit once in the head by a .45-caliber bullet fired from white Millington police officer Peter Nichelson's issue Glock 21 as the officer "ran up and paused for a second and shot [him] Gossett." Gossett was black.

Since Nichelson was not charged nor convicted for an intentional murder, violation of the suspected auto thief's civil rights, or any associated *hate crime,* but was instead convicted of criminally negligent homicide, it appears that his misuse of that pistol was the negligent act. See Rule 4.

Nevertheless, police investigators, deputy prosecutors and juries hereabouts view the Glock as the choice of local drug dealers, bikers and negligent cops, as the local city PD folks carry S&W autopistols, and that perception weighs on the carry and use of Glocks by the rest of us. Of course, some local feds use the .40 Glock as well.

-archy-/-

Nope , just three Rottweillers .....Tenifer, Chaos and "Fluffy" (don't ask). As to pups I'll keep ya posted .......

My first experience with the glock was in Quito Ecuador. A SF troop was packing one as he liked the no rust option that glocks seem to enjoy from good tough finishing process. I have actually been to the glock USA facility in Smyrna GA and was given the nickle tour , dinner and a great ride in one very nice custom porsche Mr Glock had given his CEO there. Mr Carl Walther was CEO of that place then and when my team and I went to pick out and pick up our order we got to break bread with Carl and his wife.

If I'm not mistaken he has since went to Ruger and then was with Steyr and now GSI in Huntsville. Glocks are great duty guns IMHO and take more abuse than we could dish out. I prefer the 1911 series for my personal use but if a High Capacity , reliable sidearm is needed the Glock is right up there with my SIG 228 . If I know I'm gonna get wet and muddy I'll take the glock everytime as it is just a rugged simple piece of gear. The P38 C-Rat opener of pistolas IMHO.......

Stay Safe !

Albeit I love the "old" S&W wheelguns I would'nt commit suicide with a S&W semi-auto. Biggest POS I have ever encountered is a S&W SA.......

And I was fair about it. I just assumed I got a bad one, sent it back under warranty and S&W replaced it. The one they sent back went south after the 333'd round requiring more warranty work. All of this with commercial black hills ammo (no reloads). Confidence is extreamly low for the S&W SA's for me based on the above experience and have I said I DON'T like S&W autos enough !!!

Stay Safe Archy !!

Way back in 1968 I got a S&W Model 59 9mm that has gone through over 10,000 rounds with the only malfunctions directly attributable to some Canadian military surplus ammo with exceptionally hard primers. The gun has never once stovepiped failed to feed or failed in any other way with the above exception. misfires were corrected by pulling the trigger DA mode. This is one of the older guns with the barrel bushing, aluminum alloy frame, and a revolver grade trigger. I guess way back then I got one of the good ones.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

LOL, I guess they could have put up a leather jacket for me because I had my wall locker open and had the sense at least to point the gun at my locker before I dropped the mag. After that I went totally brain dead and pulled the trigger. Round went through the side of my locker, into my buddies locker and I killed his leather jacket. Then into a concrete wall.

Maybe a locker and a jacket target.

Your welcome.

Our range officer thought that this happened perhaps because the guns had so many rounds through them. I don't think he dug too deep to find out. I didn't either since we were trading them in.

Best wishes.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.