Remember Ruby Ridge: Ten years later, there are still important lessons.

National Review Online ^ | August 21, 2002 | Timothy Lynch

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

Neither one of us is wrong. You are correct in your statement of the law but I'm correct as to how they got Weaver indicted.

That is how they did it to Weaver (got the indictment) as per the Bill Moyers special on A&E, if he is to be believed.

Somehow I doubt Moyers would throw that in there just to make the govt. look bad seeing how Moyers is as liberal as they come in the media.

[wardaddy]

Bootlicker on the thread alert bump!

[Maelstrom]

Bump.

Never forget.

[jjm2111]

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but many here are NOT Republicans, but Conservatives (or Libertarians). So you probably won't win any converts.

I agree with you about Koresh & Co. and Weaver being Kooks. White Seperatists and Give-me-all-your-earthly-possessions cults are not my cup of tea. Being a kook should NOT, repeat NOT, (IMHO) invite shoot first, ask questions later tactics from the feds. People in this country have rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

I think the feds grossly overstepped their authority and acted criminally in BOTH cases. The coverup only made things worse.

If any of your friends lump you in with people like Weaver or Koresh because you are a Republican, you friends need to educate themselves a bit. That's like saying to a liberal friend of yours that all liberals are greedy racists because Louis Farrakhan is a greedy racists.

[Wm Bach]

WHACKED-OUT government hating KOOK alert!!!

What else would you expect from a William F. Buckley publication? He's a bircher from Yale I tell ya!

[Johnny Shear]

Good, fair points.

I guess I just think, in the end, the dumbasses that got themselves into these messes (Weaver and Koresh) are ultimately at fault for not doing one simple thing...

Politely cooperating with authorities...Like any sensible person would. Instead, they had some kind of weird obscession with hating the government and considering themselves above the law (Laws that make society function fairly well most of the time)...

They are WHACKED-OUT KOOKS that got themselves, their families, and/or their followers killed. And along the way, injured and killed many good law enforcement officers. People who defend ME! Excuse me if I don't have much love lost for Cop Killers! Or the people who glorify them just because they're a little "Whacky and Kooky" about the government and society too.

And like I've said before...I only respond to about 1 in every 20 or 30 opportunities concerning these matters. The rest of the time I just let the loonies run. But sometimes I'll reserve the right to (try) to be heard too.

[Trailerpark Badass]

Politely cooperating with authorities

You don't know much about what happened at either Ruby Ridge ro Waco, do you? Kind of hard to cooperate politely when truckloads of ATF stormtroopers are shooting up your home. Why didn't ATF arrest Koresh when he went jogging alone (nearly every day) or when he went into town for ice cream (again, something he did regularly)? Why conduct a risky raid in a building full of children, when he could have easily been taken unarmed, by himself?

[Johnny Shear]

Hindsite is 20/20, it all could have been handled better. But that is irrelevent.

If these men weren't WHACKED-OUT KOOKS who HATE anything different than their selfish little world view, a lot of people would be alive today. (Well, probably not, I'm sure they would have found a way to get into some kind of stupid, ego driven, deadly confrontation sooner or later).....

Dumbasses. All they had to do was cooperate. To hell with them.

[Lurker]

What in the world is wrong with killing murderous trespassors on your own private property?

Nobody ever displayed so much as a badge, let alone a warrant. Those to FedGov idiots had shot Mr. Weavers dog, and murdered his son with a taxpayer paid volley of automatic weapons fire in the back. Just for good measure, they cranked off a full magazine in the direction of his house and wounded a family friend for Gods sake.

Then boneheads like you want to fault Mr. Weaver for not leaving the cabin with his hands up! Hell, the only reason I would have left that cabin would be to pick the ***holes who had just murdered my son off one by one until they were out of rifle range.

Noone demanded that Weaver surrender until hours later when the FBI began rolling armored vehicles onto his property. Even then, noone bothered to inform him that there was a warrant out for his arrest. But, hey why sweat the details eh?

I mean the Feds had just stored up oodles of goodwill in their dealings with Mr. Weaver, hadn't they? Geez, they frigging lied to him every step of the way.

And once again, just for you Johny boy, a duly constituted Jury had the opportunity to convict Mr. Weaver of Capital Murder as well as multiple counts of conspiracy, and firearms violations. The Jury declined to do so on all counts, ruling that the killing of that Federal Goon Marshall was in fact a justifiable killing and that Mr. Weaver was not guilty of any, (that means none, zip, zilch, nada) responsibility in the death.

Now, you deal with that.

Federal Officials acting outside the law under false color of authority are fair game for killing by private citizens. The Supreme Court has already said so. See U.S. v. Cruikshank if you doubt me.

Now, you don't have to like it, but that's the way it is. The law on the matter is already settled.

Mr. Weavers political views are irrelevant to the situation.

There's also the small matter of the settlement paid to Mr. Weaver by Janet Renos Justice Department in order to settle a wrongful death suit. The Federal Government paid Mr. Weaver something on the order of 3 million dollars, without admitting any wrongdoing of course.

Now, you don't have to like Mr. Weavers political views. I don't like them either. That doesn't change the fact that that particular U.S. Marshall, on that particular day was legally responsible for his own death and had in fact murdered an innocent 12 year old boy.

Mr. Weaver would have been perfectly within his rights under Idaho law to hunt everyone involved down and kill them while they remained on his property.

Had the same thing happened to me and my family on my property under similar circumstances I assure you not one of them would have left my property alive while I was drawing breath.

You may be willing to tolerate unlawful behavior by Federal authorities including murder because you don't like the victims political views, but I am not.

Marshall Dugan is dead because on that particular day he was acting in not only an unlawful manner, but a particularly stupid unlawful manner.

Randy Weaver and his family weren't doing a damn thing wrong that day. The Federal Government was.

Deal with that.

L

[gatex]

"...Politely cooperating with authorities..."

You mislead by omitting the fact that Weaver was given the wrong date to appear in court --- the court did not politely cooperate with Weaver.

[gatex]

"...All they had to do was cooperate..."

You mislead by failing to mention that the FBI killed Vickie Weaver from ambush, without announcing their presence or asking anyone to surrender ( source-- 9th Circuit Court of Appeals case, 2001 --Idaho vs. Hourichi).

[archy]

Re: your # 13 - this sounds like some of the stuff near the end of a rather long John Ross book, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps. Or perhaps the beginning of a sequel....

-archy-/-

[Trailerpark Badass]

If these men weren't WHACKED-OUT KOOKS who HATE anything different than their selfish little world view

Funny, that's how I'm seeing you now. Thanks for your forthright replies. Most people aren't honest or brave enough to reveal their wanton ignorance so plainly. You've saved me the effort of paying attention to any future twaddle that has your name attached.

[HiTech RedNeck]

APPLAUSE

[Teacher317]

I can't say I support random killing of Justice Dept. officials or anti-gun nuts (hoplophobes?)... but I just might feel a sliver of Schadenfreude if some of those responsible for Ruby Ridge and Waco were to meet unhappy fates.

[Teacher317]

Dumbasses. All they had to do was cooperate. To hell with them.

Isn't that what they told the Jews who were shot for refusing to get on the trains?

Refusing to comply with unConstitutional laws, refusing to accept drummed-up charges (do you KNOW the "violation" that Randy Weaver was "guilty" of?), and refusing to capitulate to power-mad authorities is to be applauded, not punished by the death-penalty-without-a-trial.

[Teacher317]

I truely believe that if the dead people in these cases (Or in this case Randy Weaver) would have NOT been "Whacked-Out Kooks", they would be alive today.

The 24 children at Waco were "kooks", and therefore it is acceptable for the Dept of Justice to barbecue them after gassing them, despite the large number of inconsistencies in their stories, the lack of any evidence that drugs were being made or used, or that any crime was committed (other than a $200 fee not being paid)? You really should read up on that "Right to Life, Liberty..." stuff.

[Wm Bach]

Nah, he's full of crap. Johnny, you're simply full of crap.

[tpaine]

Nope, Johnny, and you, are scared little fundamentalists, appealing to Big Brother to save you:


What is Fundamentalism?

Posted on 08/08/2002 1:04 PM Pacific by tpaine
WHAT IS FUNDAMENTALISM?

Modern day fundamentalism is an extreme reaction to the complexity and immorality of today's world. The knowledge and technology explosion has left many people confused and afraid. Their understandable longing for security leads some to look for a way to cut through the complexities of modern life and reestablish fundamental truths.

Fundamentalists try to satisfy their "lust for certitude" by oversimplifying things, by making a passionate commitment to a part, and sometimes to a distortion, of the truth.

What is Fundamentalism?
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