Death of American Twins, Liberty and Freedom

Self

[Old philosopher]

Today, November 25, 2002, with the signature of George W. Bush creating the Department of Homeland Security, a milestone in the History of our great country was marked by the death of the Twin Pillars of our society, Freedom and Liberty.

The fight to keep alive these two foundations of our Nation has been a long and arduous one. The mercilous attacks on them have come from politicians on both sides of the aisle in their ever continuing grab for more and more power. Regardless of popular support for the twins, the political class has long sought to bring about their demise. In a "Bi-Partisan" effort both houses of Congress have voted to destroy the most important rights of the People, only a very few of the Congress opposed the death of these important twins.

Those of us who have known these twins for a long time will be very much saddened by their death, and those who have only known them briefly will soon learn how important they were to the Welfare and Security of our Great Country. With the death of Liberty and Freedom it will only be a short time until the Populace of this country will be living under a Dictatorship, controlled by an "Elite" class of politicians who will dictate every facet of our lives.

Requiem In Pacet!

[Old philosopher]

As an old man who has known these twins for 78 years, I shall miss them very much, but my pity is reserved for those who must live for maany years without their protection.

That's my opinion

[Southack]

Your liberty and freedom haven't been taken, but your common sense and resistance to Leftist propaganda certainly appear to be missing.

[Reagan Man]

The new Homeland Security Department is an effort to make certain aspects of the federal bureaucracy operate in a more efficient and effective manner. It gives the feds unified ability to deter terrorist activities. It doesn't go after law abiding citizens. While its important for all American's to remain vigilant when it comes to anything that the federal government engages in, this reorganization effort doesn't harm the liberty and freedom all American's cherish. There is no evidence that by protecting and defending the American people from acts of terrorism, President Bush and his administration has shown a desire to damage the Constitutional rights of American's.

[spodbox]

Well, one could argue that an efficently running government is more dangerous than a bloated bureaocracy. But you do make a good point: we need to keep a close eye on them, especially when legislation of this sort comes up. If all this is is a reorganiztion, then this post is an exercise in hyperbole. If there are actual new powers hidden in it, then it is not quite so clear.

[sinkspur]

I've noticed that some seniors, like children, are given to hyperbole.

You guys are gonna have to stop using apocalyptic metaphors for every, last, single thing that happens!

FReepers told us the world was going to hell when Clinton wasn't convicted. Then, the war on Bosnia was the end of the world as we know it.

Now, I find out that Liberty and Freedom were lost in a reorganization of several governmental departments into one, something American businesses do every day.

The GOP has a chance to change the direction of the judicial system in America for the next two generations thanks to the last election. Instead of rejoicing at the prospect, all we get from some conservatives is hand-wringing that the world is not conforming to their vision of it.

[Reagan Man]

It's not all about reorganization. One part from the Congressional summary, indicates two critical features that have been uncluded in the new HSA.

Requires the Secretary to: (1) establish procedures for sharing information; and (2) appoint a senior Privacy Officer to assume primary responsibility for privacy policy.

The first one establishes a more coherent structure of communication between federal departments. Something that was lacking and brought to light immediately following 9-11. The second feature will act as a "watchdog" agency, to assure that the privacy of innocent American's aren't unfortunately, caught up in the middle of the ongoing war on terrorism.

[Hank Kerchief]

The new Homeland Security Department is an effort to make certain aspects of the federal bureaucracy operate in a more efficient and effective manner.

Let me repeat what I said on another thread to a similar comment:

The sheep's naiveté knows no bounds.

Sure, government bureaus are famous for their efficiency and effectiveness, and the bigger they are, the more effective they are. Right?!

This boondogle will definitely cause a lot of American citizens unnecessary trouble, but the terrorists are safer now than they have ever been.

...this reorganization effort doesn't harm the liberty and freedom all American's cherish...

I don't know what "liberty" you cherish, but suspect you cherish "liberty from personal responsibility" (i.e. security) above liberty to live you life without government interference.

I would rather take my chances with the terrorists than with a government which has the power to search my person or property without a warrant or warning, to force me to inject a substance in my body whether I choose to or not or to imprison me if I choose not obey orders to relocate, give up my property, or any other thing any so-called "emergency" requires.

Maybe they won't use the power to reduce our freedom even more than it has already been reduced, but then people used to believe government would not use its power of confiscate one third of their wages.

Hank

[c-b 1]

The sheep's naiveté knows no bounds.

Well said!

Would the Republicans in the House, and Senate who have been pushing this, have given this power to Bill Clinton? Does anyone think the ignorant voters will never elect another like Clinton?

[Tench_Coxe]

What are you, a communist? </sarcasm>

[Bella_Bru]

You forgot about the Y2K thing. I think some still may be down in their shelters. ;-)

[Reagan Man]

Since you're obviously, anti-government to the core, I can't take anything you say seriously. But I will address one fallacy you mentioned.

>>>I don't know what "liberty" you cherish, but suspect you cherish "liberty from personal responsibility" (i.e. security) above liberty to live you life without government interference.

On this specific issue of liberty versus security (safety), I have to say, both you and old Ben Franklin are dead wrong.

Franklin said:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

We haven't lost any of our essential liberty or basic freedom either. And besides, Franklin wasn't living in the 21st century and facing the immoral and destructive capability of international terrorism. So I will excuse old Ben Franklin in that regard. OTOH, you should know better, except your blind to the realities of the modern world.

I also suggest every American take advantage of the second amendment. I know, I do. Self defense is a right that is critical to living in America. We can't expect LE to be there under all circumstances.

However, when it comes to frying bigger fish, it is the Constitutional duty of the federal government, to serve, protect and defend the American people, from all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Patrick Henry said: "Give me liberty, or give me death". Henry didn't say, if you inconvenience me, or annoy me, or bother me, you should "give me death". I suggest you get your head out of the 18th century and join the 21st century.

[Southack]

"The sheep's naiveté knows no bounds."

So says Chicken Little, anyway.

So, what SPECIFIC liberty and/or freedom was lost today when the Homeland Security bill was signed into law?

Oh, that's right, the poster for this thread couldn't manage to identify it...

[Cultural Jihad]

Ho hum. More drama queen antics.

[Old philosopher]

All of you Bush Bots are, and will be in denial on this subject!

Do you really believe that all of the new powers given to the Elite Political Estblishment will be used with restraint? Dream on! With the govenment tracking your every move, you will soon be as enslaved as the Germans were under Hitler, or the Russians were under the Communists. Who is to determine which of the records they keep on you will be used to deprive you of your rights (if you have any left), or to declare you a criminal, put you in prison to remain there until some other party comes to power that might set you free? The JBT will be in charge, and experience, as well as history, shows that when small minds acquire a little power, they tend to abuse it.

You three as well as the rest of the Bush Bots should take the time to study History (a subject rarely taught in schools these days), and learn how the abuse of power comes about, and also how seldom Liberties and Freedoms, once given up, are ever re-acquired.

At the present some of those of the Liberal Extraction are worrying about the loss of Freedom and Liberty, but that is only because they are not currently in power. What do you suppose will happen if and when they regain power? Do you believe that they will not abuse these new powers granted under the guise of "National Security? And when you are on the other side will you still feel that you have not lost any freedoms when the JBT's come for You? I suggest that you lookup the comment of Pastor Niemoller when asked why he and others did nothing to stop the Nazi's. Perhaps I should quote it for those of you who are unable, unwilling or too lazy to take the time to look up this now famous quotation.

"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me."

As I said earlier, learn a little History before you start to flame me for speaking the truth.

[Southack]

"All of you Bush Bots are, and will be in denial on this subject!"

Oh, do grow up old man.

I'm not the one running around like Chicken Little claiming that some unmentioned "freedoms" have been suddenly stolen from me, but you sure are doing that very thing.

Come on, be a man and have the guts to either mention the SPECIFIC freedom/liberty that was stolen, or else admit that you are simply full of hyperbole.

[Reagan Man]

With all due respect, I think you should change your screename to "Old Fart". Your accusations are outrageous and outlandish.

>>>... you will soon be as enslaved as the Germans were under Hitler, or the Russians were under the Communists.

I think you might even be a disruptor. Is that you Arator?

[freddy]

we need to keep a close eye on them

And what the He-- good is "Keeping a close eye on them" gonna do..???

[Cultural Jihad]

"But some people simply insist on arguing in bad faith. Too many conservatives and libertarians are simply married to the idea that we must be losing our liberties because, hey, if we're not, I have no excuse to be so angry." posted here

[Lizavetta]

It gives the feds unified ability to deter terrorist activities. It doesn't go after law abiding citizens.

It most certainly will, given government's past history. Didn't the new, tough airport screening policies specifically avoid the middle eastern types and instead result in patdowns of little old ladies? And look at the fab job we're doing on immigration - the law-breaking immigrants versus the legit immigrants who try to become citizens the right way.

I shudder to think of what the "unintended" consequences of this Homeland BS is going to be....especially when an out and out one worlder like Hillary gets to control of it. It will be another big, fat, expensive, wasteful, inefficient bureaucracy that WILL NEVER A) DO WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, AND B) GO AWAY, ONCE ITS BEEN MADE PAINFULLY CLEAR THAT IT DOESN'T DO WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO.

[Reagan Man]

Jonah Goldberg, on the money! Thanks CJ.