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Surprise, Mom: I'm Anti-Abortion
New York Times ^ | 3/30/03 | ELIZABETH HAYT

Posted on 03/29/2003 7:00:29 PM PST by madprof98

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FOR her high school class in persuasive speech, Afton Dahl, 16, chose to present an argument that abortion should be illegal. She graphically described the details of various abortion techniques, including facts about fetal heart development.

"The baby's heartbeat starts at around 12 to 18 days, so it's murder to kill someone with a heartbeat," Miss Dahl said recently, recalling the argument she used in class in January. "I don't believe in abortion under any circumstances, including rape. I think it would be better to overturn Roe v. Wade."

Miss Dahl, a sophomore, attends Red Wing High School in Red Wing, Minn., a small city that is the home of Red Wing shoes and a town where a majority voted for Al Gore for president. Miss Dahl's abortion views are not something she learned from her parents: her mother, Fran Dahl, 47, maintains that abortion should be a woman's choice.

"Nowadays kids don't grow up knowing or being aware of what was going on when abortion was illegal," said Ms. Dahl, a former nurse. "It's not a choice that I would have taken personally, but for the future of women I want to see the right to an abortion maintained."

This contrast between mother and teenage daughter illustrates a trend noted in polls: that teenagers and college-age Americans are more conservative about abortion rights than their counterparts were a generation ago. Many people old enough to have teenage children and who equate youth with liberal social opinions on topics like gay rights and the use of marijuana for medical purposes have been surprised at this discovery. Miss Dahl was one of numerous students in her class who chose to make speeches about abortion, and most took the anti-abortion side.

"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Iraq). "The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

A study of American college freshmen shows that support for abortion rights has been dropping since the early 1990's: 54 percent of 282,549 students polled at 437 schools last fall by the University of California at Los Angeles agreed that abortion should be legal. The figure was down from 67 percent a decade earlier. A New York Times/CBS News poll in January found that among people 18 to 29, the share who agree that abortion should be generally available to those who want it was 39 percent, down from 48 percent in 1993.

"Abortion isn't a rights issue — it's become for increasing numbers of young people a moral, ethical issue," said Henry Brady, a professor of political science and public policy at Berkeley who has taken surveys in this area. "They haven't faced a situation where they couldn't get an abortion." Experts offer a number of reasons why young people today seem to favor stricter abortion laws than their parents did at the same age. They include the decline in teenage pregnancy over the last 10 years, which has reduced the demand for abortion. They also cite society's greater acceptance of single parenthood; the spread of ultrasound technology, which has made the fetus seem more human; and the easing of the stigma once attached to giving up a child for adoption.

Ten to 15 years ago, said Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, an abortion-rights group, adoption was generally portrayed as an effort to find parents for needy children. Now, she said, that has changed — infertile couples are desperately seeking children.

"Young people are idealistic," Ms. Kissling said. "They think sacrifice is a good thing, particularly conservative Christian kids. One of the main sacrifices you can give is the gift of a child to a deserving couple."

The most commonly cited reason for the increasingly conservative views of young people is their receptiveness to the way anti-abortion campaigners have reframed the national debate on the contentious topic, shifting the emphasis from a woman's rights to the rights of the fetus.

Abortion opponents celebrated on March 13 when the Senate passed a ban on a procedure that its critics call partial-birth abortion; the bill is expected to pass the House quickly and be signed by President Bush, and to immediately face a court challenge. Even though the procedure is used in only a tiny fraction of cases, graphic descriptions of it since the mid-90's, and even the name its foes have given it (doctors call it dilation and extraction), have had an impact on young people.

"There's been so much media attention over the last seven to eight years on partial-birth abortion, we shouldn't be surprised that some of it has had an effect on 12-to-14-year-olds, and it is a public relations coup for the National Right to Life Committee," said David J. Garrow, a legal historian at Emory University who has focused on reproductive rights.

Britni Hoffbeck, another speech student at Red Wing High who opposes abortion, and who says her views are more conservative than those of her parents, put her argument succinctly: "It's more about the baby's rights than the woman's rights."

Tom Cosgrove, a communications consultant in Cambridge, Mass., who has researched the views of young people for national abortion-rights groups, said: "All the restrictions that the right-to-life movement has imposed young people look at and say, `They're a good thing, because it's meant to protect a young woman's health.' They don't want the label of pro-choice. The pro-life side figured out a long time ago that this is about children, whereas the pro-choice movement is focused on women and choice."

Some young people who oppose abortion, and who were born after the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 declared that were is a constitutional right to abortion, have adopted a new rhetoric. One of them is Kelly Kroll, a junior at Boston College and president of American Collegians for Life, who says she is a "survivor of the abortion holocaust" because she was adopted. "Myself and my classmates have never known a world in which abortion wasn't legalized," she said. "We've realized that any one of us could have been aborted. When I talk about being a survivor of abortion, I am talking about it from a personal place."

Margaret Watson, a junior at Rutgers University who recently started an abortion rights group on campus, RU Choice, said that because the historical circumstances surrounding Roe v. Wade are distant, her peers take the right to an abortion for granted.

"For my generation, we have always grown up knowing we could have an abortion," she said. "I look at being pro-choice as being American, to have free will. I would hope that mothers do decide to keep their babies, but I just want women to be able to make up their own minds."

One reason there may be less support for abortion among the young is that they are less likely to imagine having to consider an abortion, because teenage pregnancy rates are down: while 4 out of 10 girls become pregnant, that is a 21 percent decrease since 1990, according to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy.

Experts attribute the decline to greater awareness of AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases, which has led young people to become more cautious about sex. Studies show that fewer high school students engage in sexual intercourse, and that contraceptive use is up.

"There are better contraceptives — RU-486, the morning-after pill — along with an emphasis on sex ed, abstinence and slogans like, `Not me, Not now,' " said a sophomore at Hunter College High School in Manhattan whose father did not want her to be identified. "Abortion isn't such an issue, because getting pregnant isn't such a prevalent problem among my peers."

Some parents trace their teenagers' anti-abortion views to sexuality education programs that stress abstinence as the only way to prevent pregnancy and disease, and in the process sometimes demonize abortion. Since 1996 the federal government has budgeted $50 million annually to "abstinence only till marriage" programs, which are taught in 35 percent of public schools in the country, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group affiliated with Planned Parenthood.

Renee Walker gave permission for her seventh-grade son to participate in such a program last fall in his public school in Concord, Calif. But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of abortion, including the circled words "killing a baby." He said he had been told abortion "tears the arms and legs off."

Ms. Walker sent a letter of complaint to officials of the school district, Mount Diablo Unified School District, expressing her surprise that the abstinence curriculum had been created by First Resort, a Christian anti-abortion and pregnancy counseling group. "Most parents are busy, doing laundry, running around like me, and we're trusting the schools to reflect public policy," she said. "I had an anti-choice critter jump out of my son's backpack and was running around my house."

The district agreed with Ms. Walker that the First Resort program was overly graphic, a schools spokeswoman said. It asked for, and got, modifications, she said.

If today's teenagers and young adults maintain their views on abortion into older adulthood, and if succeeding waves of students are also conservative, the balance could tip somewhat in the America's long-running abortion war, some experts speculate.

It's unclear whether the shift will ever be substantial enough to change the centrist position of the majority of Americans of all ages: that abortion should be legal, but with restrictions. In Red Wing, the certainty of the youthful opinions of the students reminded their speech-lcass teacher, Jillynne Raymond, of an earlier generation's certainty — her own.

"Teenagers have strong opinions," Ms. Raymond, 41, said. "It's no different than the 70's when I was a teenager, but the difference is that the majority of speeches then were pro-choice. I wanted the right to an abortion as a woman. The focus then was not having the government tell me what to do with my body.

"Today," she said of her students, "the majority is pro-life."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholiclist; generationy; prolife
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To: TPartyType
They're conservative about more than just abortion rights.

Yep. And they don't hate their parents (in spite of very good reasons to in way too many cases) the way their parents hated their parents. I content this whole modern liberal mantra is based on parental hatred. I just never understood why it infected a whole generation.

21 posted on 03/29/2003 7:31:20 PM PST by 1L
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To: madprof98
But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of abortion, including the circled words "killing a baby."

As opposed to becoming alarmed over the killing itself.

She should give herself credit for raising a son with a conscience.

22 posted on 03/29/2003 7:33:18 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: madprof98
read later - re: abortion
23 posted on 03/29/2003 7:35:28 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: madprof98
"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Iraq). "The people I associate with in town are pro-choice, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

This quote is so choice I don't know where to begin...

1. Liberal Nina Verdin is shocked that there was anyone able to disagree after the comprehensive brainwashing from the compassionate left.

2. Liberal Nina Verdin was shocked that the repressive, suffocating fascism the left has visited on the thinking of children in liberal educational institutions has not worked and some children might actually be strong and confident in their opposition opinions.

3. Liberal Nina Verdin was shocked that any children would speak out on pro life issues.

4. Liberal Nina Verdin admits that she and her friends, ardent advocates of diversity, only speak and associate with others that hold the same exact opinions as themselves.

5. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that the repressive, suffocating fascists techniques of her and her comrades have not stamped out opposition thought and independant thinking in her town.

6. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that people have children who are allowed a different opinion than the prevailing liberal orthodoxy.

7. Liberal Nina Verdin is troubled that there may be nasty nests of non-conformists who may contact and infect the carefully crafted groupthink of the progressive and free thinking collective.

24 posted on 03/29/2003 7:36:32 PM PST by Bob J
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To: JmyBryan
"the spread of ultrasound technology, which has made the fetus seem more human"

Yeah, I noticed that absurd statement as well. The pro-aborts can't refer to "it" as a blob of cells anymore. I have interpreted thousands of OB ultrasounds - even at 12 weeks the "fetus" looks and moves like a tiny baby. There aint no "seems" about it. It = human.
25 posted on 03/29/2003 7:39:31 PM PST by Maynerd
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To: IncPen
flying pigs at the NYT alert....
26 posted on 03/29/2003 7:45:30 PM PST by BartMan1
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To: JusPasenThru
The number of deaths from illegal abortions in the years prior to Roe v. Wade were always less than the number of people killed by lightning strikes.

It would perhaps be more informative to compare the number of women who died from pre-Roe abortions with the number that died from post-Roe abortions. Given the orders-of-magnnitude increase in the number of abortions, I suspect more women are dying from them now than did pre-Roe.

27 posted on 03/29/2003 7:54:14 PM PST by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: madprof98
I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being pro-life

Many of the confident "pro-choice" kids got slaughtered in the womb. That kinda put a damper on their confidence. Neither my generation, nor those that follow will ever forget our millions of lost brothers and sisters. We have been impoverished by their murders.

Job 5
1   Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
2   For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.
3   I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.
4   His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither is there any to deliver them.

29 posted on 03/29/2003 8:06:04 PM PST by Theophilus (The Tree of Liberty is now being fertilized with the blood of terrorists & tyrants.)
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: madprof98
IF THE NEWYORK TIMES HAD BEEN AS PROSLAVERY AS THEY ARE PRO-FETAL MURDER.....

FOR her high school class in persuasive speech, Afton Dahl, 16, chose to present an argument that slavery should be illegal. She graphically described the details of various slavery techniques, including facts about sale of unwanted labor.

"They separate families at gunpoint and sell them throughout the south. Sometimes husbands never see their wives again," Miss Dahl said recently, recalling the argument she used in class in January. "I don't believe in slavery under any circumstances, including rape. I think it would be better to overturn the Dred Scott decision.”

Miss Dahl, a sophomore, attends Red Wing High School in Red Wing, Minn., a small city that is the home of Red Wing shoes and a town where a majority voted for Douglas for president. Miss Dahl's slavery views are not something she learned from her parents: her mother, Fran Dahl, 47, maintains that slavery should be a state choice.

"Nowadays kids don't grow up knowing or being aware of what was going on when slavery was illegal," said Ms. Dahl, a former slaver. "It's not a choice that I would have taken personally, but for the future of states I want to see the right to an slavery maintained."

This contrast between mother and teenage daughter illustrates a trend noted in polls: that teenagers and college-age Americans are more abolitionist about slavery rights than their counterparts were a generation ago. Many people old enough to have teenage children and who equate youth with liberal social opinions on topics like free love and the use of tobacco have been surprised at this discovery. Miss Dahl was one of numerous students in her class who chose to make speeches about slavery, and most took the anti-slavery side.

"I was shocked that there were that many students who felt strong enough and confident enough to speak about being abolitionist," said Nina Verin, a parent of another student in the class (whose oral argument was about war in Mexico). "The people I associate with in town are pro-slavery, so I'm troubled — where do these kids come from?"

A study of American college freshmen shows that support for slavery rights has been dropping since the early 1850's: 54 percent of 282,549 students polled at 437 schools last fall by the University of Indiana agreed that slavery should be legal. The figure was down from 67 percent a decade earlier. A New York Times poll in January found that among people 18 to 29, the share who agree that slavery should be generally available to those who want it was 39 percent, down from 48 percent in 1993.

"Slavery isn't a rights issue — it's become for increasing numbers of young people a moral, ethical issue," said Henry Brady, a professor of political science and public policy at Berkeley who has taken surveys in this area. "They haven't faced a situation where they couldn't get a slave." Experts offer a number of reasons why young people today seem to favor stricter slavery laws than their parents did at the same age. They include the decline in teenage pregnancy over the last 10 years, which has reduced the demand for slavery. They also cite society's greater acceptance of single parenthood; the spread of cotton-gin technology, which has made the slave seem more human; and the easing of the stigma once attached to giving up a farm rather than force others to labor on it for free at gunpoint.

Ten to 15 years ago, said Francis Kissling, president of Slavers for a Free Choice, a slavery-rights group, adoption was generally portrayed as an effort to find parents for needy children. Now, he said, that has changed — infertile farmland is desperately seeking free farmers.

"Young people are idealistic," Ms. Kissling said. "They think sacrifice is a good thing, particularly conservative Christian kids. One of the main sacrifices you can give is the gift of a slave to a deserving slave owner.”

The most commonly cited reason for the increasingly conservative views of young people is their receptiveness to the way anti-slavery campaigners have reframed the national debate on the contentious topic, shifting the emphasis from state's rights to the rights of the slave.

Slavery opponents celebrated on March 13 when the Senate passed a ban on a procedure that its critics call partial-birth slavery, where one is declared a slave halfway out of the womb without the mother having to be a slave. The bill is expected to pass the House quickly and be signed by President Lincoln, and to immediately face a court challenge. Even though the procedure is used in only a tiny fraction of cases, graphic descriptions of it since the mid-50's, and even the name its foes have given it (doctors call it at birth free labor recruitment), have had an impact on young people.

"There's been so much media attention over the last seven to eight years on partial-birth slavery, we shouldn't be surprised that some of it has had an effect on 12-to-14-year-olds, and it is a public relations coup for the Abolitionists,” said David J. Garrow, a legal historian at Emory University who has focused on labor-ownership rights.

Britni Hoffbeck, another speech student at Red Wing High who opposes slavery, and who says her views are more conservative than those of her parents, put her argument succinctly: "It's more about the slave's rights than the slaveowner's rights."

Tom Cosgrove, a communications consultant in Cambridge, Mass., who has researched the views of young people for national slavery-rights groups, said: "All the restrictions that the abolitionist movement has imposed young people look at and say, `They're a good thing, because it's meant to protect a farm’s economic health.' They don't want the label of pro-slavery. The abolitionist side figured out a long time ago that this is about slave, whereas the pro-slavery movement is focused on states and farmers."

Some young people who oppose slavery, and who were born after the Dred Scott decision, declared that were is a constitutional right to slavery, have adopted a new rhetoric. One of them is Kelly Kroll, a junior at Boston College and president of American Collegians for Abolition, who says she is a "survivor of the slavery holocaust" because she was formerly a slave. "Myself and my classmates have never known a world in which slavery wasn't legalized," she said. "We've realized that any one of us could have been sold. When I talk about being a survivor of slavery, I am talking about it from a personal place."

Margaret Watson, a junior at Rutgers University who recently started an slavery rights group on campus, said that because the historical circumstances surrounding Dred Scott are distant, her peers take the right to an slavery for granted.

"For my generation, we have always grown up knowing we could have an slavery," she said. "I look at being pro-slavery as being American, to have free will. I would hope that owners do decide to keep their slaves, but I just want owners to be able to make up their own minds."

One reason there may be less support for slavery among the young is that they are less likely to imagine having to consider an slavery as immigration is up, reducing the need for forced labor.

Experts attribute the decline to greater awareness of technology and slavery-transmitted agricultural diseases, which has led young people to become more cautious about slave sales.

Some parents trace their teenagers' anti-slavery views to economic education programs that stress free labor as the only way to prevent slavery, and in the process sometimes demonize slavery. Since 1856 the federal government has budgeted $50 million annually to "nobility of labor” programs, which are taught in 35 percent of public schools in the country, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit group affiliated with the Saleable Labor Force Institute.

Renee Walker gave permission for her seventh-grade son to participate in such a program last fall in his public school in Concord, Calif. But she said she became alarmed when, reviewing his class notes, she found a list of the disadvantages of slavery, including the circled words "killing a baby." He said he had been told slavery "tears the arms and legs off."

Ms. Walker sent a letter of complaint to officials of the school district, Mount Diablo Unified School District, expressing her surprise that the abstinence curriculum had been created by First Resort, a Christian anti-slavery and pregnancy counseling group. "Most parents are busy, doing laundry, running around like me, and we're trusting the schools to reflect public policy," she said. "I had an anti-choice critter jump out of my son's backpack and was running around my house."

The district agreed with Ms. Walker that the First Resort program was overly graphic, a schools spokeswoman said. It asked for, and got, modifications, she said.

If today's teenagers and young adults maintain their views on slavery into older adulthood, and if succeeding waves of students are also conservative, the balance could tip somewhat in the America's long-running slavery war, some experts speculate.

It's unclear whether the shift will ever be substantial enough to change the centrist position of the majority of Americans of all ages: that slavery should be legal, but with restrictions. In Red Wing, the certainty of the youthful opinions of the students reminded their speech-class teacher, Jillynne Raymond, of an earlier generation's certainty — her own.

"Teenagers have strong opinions," Ms. Raymond, 41, said. "It's no different than the 1830's when I was a teenager, but the difference is that the majority of speeches then were pro-slavery. I wanted the right to an slavery as a woman. The focus then was not having the government tell me what to do with my body.

"Today," she said of her students, "the majority is abolitionist."
31 posted on 03/29/2003 8:31:27 PM PST by homeagain balkansvet (ABOLITION NOW. NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXCUSES, NO DELAYS. DEUS VULT.)
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To: supercat
"I suspect more women are dying from them now than did pre-Roe. Well stated, Cat. Before the Roe decision, a woman's doctor could legally abort a child (it was listed as an emergency medical procedure, rightly) if the judgement was that the pregnancy attended imminent threat to the woman's life. The Roe fiat ruling made killing the unborn a matter of choice for the life supporting woman, and no longer an emergency procedure to save a life. It's been down the slippery slope from there.
32 posted on 03/29/2003 8:38:10 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: madprof98
I realized something was going on with the younger generation when I was talking with a woman who tought the sex-ed class at a Unitarian Church. About 99 percent of the adults in that particular congregation are liberal, and most are very liberal. (I was a member there for many years, so I know of what I speak.)

She described having a session on abortion. She felt her job was to teach the kids why abortion should be legal. She said she was shocked to find at least a third of the kids opposed abortion.




33 posted on 03/29/2003 8:40:15 PM PST by Our man in washington
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To: madprof98
WARNING: The Surgeon General has Determined that Abortion May Be Hazardous to Your Baby's Health
34 posted on 03/29/2003 8:42:23 PM PST by Atticus
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To: fourdeuce82d
>>>...What does the activity of the cardiac muscle have to do with whether or not I, you, or anyone else is a person protected from murder?

If it isn't alive, why do they have to kill it?

I am glad my parents didn't practice abortion.

Maybe yours should have.

35 posted on 03/29/2003 8:48:52 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: fourdeuce82d
Excuse me ... if your heart STOPS beating, you are considered dead ... if it starts beating then perhaps you should be considered ALIVE ...?? Interesting concept.
36 posted on 03/29/2003 8:54:21 PM PST by CyberAnt
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To: CyberAnt
The heart is stopped routinely during a variety of cardiac surgeries. You were first human at conception and the first cell division proved you were expressing your individual life. Later, you received life support from your Mother at your instigation via chemical messages to her body. You began to exist at your individual human conception. It is essential that this nation understand and embrace this truth else the exploitation and purposed cannibalization of individual human lives will be brought to fruition with 'therapeutic cloning' and harvesting of these individual human beings at their earliest age in their individual lifetimes. That is cannibalism.
37 posted on 03/29/2003 10:05:14 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Dan(9698)

38 posted on 03/29/2003 10:07:10 PM PST by ALS
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To: homeagain balkansvet
Very well done! The death cultists of course will scream there is no parallel between slavery and abortion serial killing on demand.
39 posted on 03/29/2003 10:07:54 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: madprof98
I guess they wrote this as a complaint
to the NEA that they are doing enough
to program the kids into being without
morals and hearts.
The kids are ready to rebel against
the corrupt immoral American establishment.
40 posted on 03/29/2003 10:23:40 PM PST by Princeliberty
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