About Objectivism

Objectivist Center ^ | 2/2002

[Hank Kerchief]

Ayn Rand is dead, so either we don't exist, or she was wrong to assert herself beyond reason. It doesn't start or end or consist of her, or of you.

So, does that mean you believe the Pythagorean theorem no longer holds since Pythagoras is dead?

A truth discovered is still the truth, even after the discoverer dies. It is customary, however, to remember who discovered particular truths.

BTW, where is the heroism in selfishness? I do not find it, objectively or otherwise.

Do you not have any values? Do you not have any values you would be willing to die to defend? Are those values "bad" for you or "good" for you? Is it not selfish to defend that which is good for you? Do cowards die for values?

Hank

[templar]

Moreover, the individual discovers that in order to be fully human one must adopt some purpose larger than himself.

Some do. Others just become President.
(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds]

objectivists rob nothing, they create - it is the non-producing sappers of the society that producers have created that drag the society down to their level - the level where they can be supported by the government that the producers fund

[Hank Kerchief]

Ends? To what end, Hank? What purposes and ends are those? You mean the individual end we all suffer? What other end is there for an individual?

Are you a collectivist too? Did not the history of Russia, of Cambodia, of Red China, teach you anything?

Why do people "fudge," when discussing principles. You know perfectly well, "ends" is another word for "goals" or "aspirations," or "purposes," and what they are is dependent entirely on each individual. Goals and purposes pertain only to individuals, and every individual's purposes and goals are determined by that individual's best understanding of what is good and right for him. Do you want the government, the collective, the neighborhood, the "group" deciding what your goals and purposes should be, or do you want to be the only one that decides that, as you are directed by your best reason and your God?

(I do not believe "want" is a legitimate basis for determining what is right, and used that word above to mean, "believe it is what you should want,").

Hank

[ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds]

if you weren't so concerned about your ass, you might be able to remove your head and realize that objectivism concerns your right to decide for yourself - government has one and only one purpose, to protect society against armed intervention and against internal fraud

[unspun]

Since she is dead and we still exist, the universe in which she dwelt is shown not to be Rand-centered for her, afterall. Neither are you nor I the center of "our" universe, because, of course, it's not really about you or me.

Also, the standards and best goals we would hope people live by are not brought by self-interest. Actually, it would be good for me to live (or die) for values, if they are standards higher than looking out for what is in my earthly life's interest. Interestingly, it just so happens that actual values (highest standards) are about what is in my ultimate interest, but that is only because God created me for Himself, in love and care.

If I don't believe this, life just does not matter after my three-score and ten (or if it does, it only does for the sake of any others in their bandwidth, and if I care about them, so as to modify and mitigate my "gains" in my lifespan in order to benefit those who come after me (even such as saving up and passing on my estate to my son, instead of enjoying it all myself) I break the "rule" of self-interest only.

Back to self-interest in, of, and for my own earthly lifespan, as it was said, "What shall if profit a (capitalist) if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?"

[ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds]

what religeous morality do you refer to - there are so many that conflict with each other that it provides no clear direction to anywhere - even the different translations of the same "scripture" contridict each other

[Anamensis]

Well, I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you're saying. But if you can't put it any other way or explain it, we'll just have to give up and let it go.

[Cultural Jihad]

objectivists rob nothing, they create - it is the non-producing sappers of the society that producers have created that drag the society down to their level -

[Anamensis]

Every Rand fan I know is a God-hater. Are all you Rand fans atheists also?

God haters and atheists are mutually exclusive. You can't hate what you don't believe in.

[ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds]

the experiment is not over - success has proven to be the result of independent thought and productivity and innovation - doing things the old way just because they have heritage is one of the certain ways to fail - look at the british for prime examples

[Capitalism2003]

I highly, highly, HIGHLY recommend Atlas Shrugged for every American. This book sold 500,000 copies last year.

catch is...it was published almost 50 years ago!;)
classic and a definate must own

[unspun]

Goals and purposes pertain only to individuals, and every individual's purposes and goals are determined by that individual's best understanding of what is good and right for him.

1. There are plenty of times in my life, when I did not understand what was good for me, and I did or perhaps did not have the opportunity to perceive it.
2. Since goals and purposes pertain only to individuals, I hope what I do in life blesses the most individuals in the greatest way.

Do you want the government, the collective, the neighborhood, the "group" deciding what your goals and purposes should be, or do you want to be the only one that decides that, as you are directed by your best reason and your God?

I want the latter within bounds (no shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, no murder, no owning things when it clearly doesn't benefit me or others, no thievery, etc.). I want pretty much what freedom we all may have to live and enjoy life (and it hurts me, BTW, when I see somone suffer unjustly or unnecessarily) within the order created by those we give the job to, to carry the sword officially and "who do not carry the sword for nothing."

[Anamensis]

Industrialists didn't steal the playtime of children. The children who went to work in the factories were so destitute that they had previously spent their time begging, stealing, whoring themselves out, and starving to death. The infant mortality rate actually dropped dramatically with the onset of factory work.

[Anamensis]

500,000 copies last year? I thought it was only about 200,000 copies. I wish I knew where to track this stuff down.

[unspun]

I'm saying that when I get to know the Ultimate Person, I sincerely want to be in His "cult of personality" and it is the need for Him, that is the very reason why people have the propensity for following someone and that person's ideas (whether it's God as it should be, or Rand, or whomever).

[ThinkLikeWaterAndReeds]

your argument is based on the foundation of god - there is none but you argue well even though you are using mythology as a basis

[Capitalism2003]

come to think of it...you are probably right. I read an article published last year that had the stat of 500,000...but it was referring to the sales figures for 2001.

so...a 50 year old book 'only' sold 200,000 copies last year.

My mistake :)

[Anamensis]

Okay, so are you saying that people are drawn not to ideas, but to people who personify the ideas?

[Misterioso]

You people worship the writer of potboiler pulp novels, where every page is preachier than a Billy Sunday sermon.

I much doubt you have every page, much less ANY page of Ayn Rand, any more than you have read a Billy Sunday sermon. Why does FR attract so many freedom-hating gasbags?