Pride Before The Fall (Horowitz Sticks it to the Fundies!)

FrontPage Magazine ^ | 5/20/03 | David Horowitz

[theoverseer]

In four Gospels - including the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus neglected to mention the subject of homosexuality. But that hasn’t stopped a handful of self-appointed leaders of the so-called Religious Right from deciding that it is an issue worth the presidency of the United States. In what the Washington Times described as a "stormy session" last week, the Rev. Lou Sheldon, Paul Weyrich, Gary Bauer and eight other "social conservatives" read the riot act to RNC chairman Marc Racicot for meeting with the "Human Rights Campaign," a group promoting legal protections for homosexuals. This indiscretion, they said, "could put Bush’s entire re-election campaign in jeopardy."

According to the Times’ report by Ralph Hallow, the RNC chairman defended himself by saying, "You people don’t want me to meet with other folks, but I meet with anybody and everybody." To this Gary Bauer retorted, "That can’t be true because you surely would not meet with the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan."

Nice analogy Gary. Way to love thy neighbor.

This demand to quarantine a political enemy might have had more credibility if the target – the Campaign for Human Rights -- were busily burning crosses on social conservatives’ lawns. But they aren’t. Moreover, the fact that it is, after all, crosses the Ku Klux Klan burns, might suggest a little more humility on the part of Christians addressing these issues. Just before the launching of the 2000 presidential campaign, George Bush himself was asked about similarly mean-spirited Republican attacks. His response was that politicians like him weren’t elected to pontificate about other people’s morals and that his own faith admonished him to take the beam out of his own eye before obsessing over the mote in someone else’s.

The real issue here is tolerance of differences in a pluralistic society. Tolerance is different from approval, but it is also different from stigmatizing and shunning those with whom we disagree.

I say this as someone who is well aware that Christians are themselves a persecuted community in liberal America, and as one who has stood up for the rights of Christians like Paul Weyrich and Gary Bauer to have their views, even when I have not agreed with some of their agendas. Not long ago, I went out on a public limb to defend Paul Weyrich when he was under attack by the Washington Post and other predictable sources for a remark he had made that was (reasonably) construed as anti-Semitic. I defended Weyrich because I have known him to be a decent man without malice towards Jews and I did not want to see him condemned for a careless remark. I defended him in order to protest the way in which we have become a less tolerant and more mean-spirited culture than we were.

I have this to say to Paul: A delegation to the chairman of the RNC to demand that he have no dialogue with the members of an organization for human rights is itself intolerant, and serves neither your ends nor ours. You told Racicot, "if the perception is out there that the party has accepted the homosexual agenda, the leaders of the pro-family community will be unable to help turn out the pro-family voters. It won’t matter what we say; people will leave in droves."

This is disingenuous, since you are a community leader and share the attitude you describe. In other words, what you are really saying is that if the mere perception is that the Republican Party has accepted the "homosexual agenda," you will tell your followers to defect with the disastrous consequences that may follow. As a fellow conservative, I do not understand how in good conscience you can do this. Are you prepared to have President Howard Dean or President John Kerry preside over our nation’s security? Do you think a liberal in the White House is going to advance the agendas of social conservatives? What can you be thinking?

In the second place, the very term "homosexual agenda," is an expression of intolerance as well. Since when do all homosexuals think alike? In fact, thirty percent of the gay population voted Republican in the last presidential election. This is a greater percentage than blacks, Hispanics or Jews. Were these homosexuals simply deluded into thinking that George Bush shared their agendas? Or do they perhaps have agendas that are as complex, diverse and separable from their sexuality as women, gun owners or Christians, for that matter?

In your confusion on these matters, you have fallen into the trap set for you by your enemies on the left. It is the left that insists its radical agendas are the agendas of blacks and women and gays. Are you ready to make this concession -- that the left speaks for these groups, for minorities and "the oppressed?" Isn’t it the heart of the conservative argument that liberalism (or, as I would call it, leftism) is bad doctrine for all humanity, not just white Christian males?

If the President’s party – or conservatism itself -- is to prevail in the political wars, it must address the concerns of all Americans and seek to win their hearts and minds. It is conservative values that forge our community and create our coalition, and neither you nor anyone else has - or should have - a monopoly in determining what those values are.

[tdadams]

For example, parents would not be warned to avoid disney Gaydays on June 3-9, 2003 unless it had been announced here... Disney is remiss in at LEASE not warning parents who ask.

I guess you're probably one of those people that propagate the myth that gay days is a Disney sponsored event.

[kegler4]

If you TRULY believe that all homosexuals think alike or that your links prove they do, you are even further detached from reality than I thought. You are completely delusional and have no common sense whatsoever.

[AppyPappy]

Getting rid of the sodomy laws is #1 for them in my state. You cannot arrest someone for public nudity for asking you if you want a blowjob in the bushes. Oral sex and anal sex are not considered sex which is why they don't charge gays with having sex in public.

[longtermmemmory]

Didn't the homosexual's texas brief admit the total homosexual population was only 2.78% inclusive of all variants. There as a thread here about the fact that even the homosexuals are admitting the 10% was a propaganda tool/"misrepresentation".

[BlueNgold]

Sorry, that comment was not directed at you in specific .. your post was last on the list at the time so I just grabbed it to reply. No offense meant at all.

[wideawake]

Fair enough.

[scripter]

It looks like you've fallen for the anti-gay hysteria pumped out every time some "family" organization needs a fundraising boost.

I've fallen for the facts which you are not responding to, and that is very typical of pro-gay folks like yourself. You either have no concerns about the homosexual agenda documented at my links above or you didn't read it. Which is it?

[tdadams]

Trying to reason on this subject is pointless with someone who simply refuses to draw any distinction between homosexuals and NAMBLA or the KKK.

[Tamar1973]

Christians are not inconsistent in their reading of the Torah, but we have a different, new covenant with God. The implications of this relationship reach into every aspect of our beings, including how we observe the law. See Hebrews 8: 1-13.

Matthew 5:17-19 states, "Do not hink that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till the heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle shall in any way pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall break one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But however shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in teh kingdom of Heaven."

The "problem" with most x-ians is they don't follow the law at all, claiming that lawlessness = grace. Paul said in Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Let it not be! how shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

[tdadams]

I've fallen for the facts...

which "facts" are those?

which you are not responding to, and that is very typical of pro-gay folks like yourself.

Nice bit of sophistry, calling me pro-gay. But I guess that's the way it is with fundies, either you're as rapidly anti-gay as they are, or your a cheerleader for sodomy.

[longtermmemmory]

For example, parents would not be warned to avoid disney Gaydays on June 3-9, 2003 unless it had been announced here... Disney is remiss in at LEASE not warning parents who ask.
I guess you're probably one of those people that propagate the myth that gay days is a Disney sponsored event.
* * * * * ** * * **

Disney has many groups which have groups congregate during regular days. Disney permits the use of the Disney logos, Disney gives hotel rates, Disney knows when the travel agents have gatherings in which parts of the the Disney property. Disney should simply answer when those days are. This will allow parents to make an infomed decision. This is particularly important since many schools start summer vacation the first week of june and that weekend could cause problems. If a mother or father makes a conscience decision to expose their child to homosexuality at disney as a result of an INFORMED decision then what is the problem? none. The homosexual activists do not want parents making decisions.

[jaime1959]

I did a Google search and saw no stories more recent than 4.26 about some faculty and students saying they didn’t want Santorum to be a commencement speaker at St. Joseph’s. Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t heard of any calls within the GOP for Santorum to step down from any committees or apologize (and FWIW, I agree with what he said and have been making similar arguments for years). So, apart from prolonging the “controversy”, I not sure what value any spirited RNC defense of Santorum would provide.

You comments about my attitude being a program for liberal victory didn’t make any sense to me. No President is going to satisfy any interest group 100% of the time; it’s just not the nature of politics. One of the problems with conservatives is they expect 100% support, and are ready to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. I really doubt that Bauer and Company will do this; they’re much too smart. It’s probably a way to show their vigilance to their supporters and let the RNC know not to take them for granted. IOW, your standard political Kabuki.

[george wythe]

Horowitz - a voice of reason in a sea of hysteria.

By reading some of the responses on this thread, it seems that Horowitz has been proven right.

[Dataman]

Legitimate points?

Indubitably.

[Scenic Sounds]

You left some great posts on this thread. ;-)

[Remedy]

texas brief admit the total homosexual population was only 2.78% inclusive of all variants

• SODOMY : Legislators,State of Texas, Lawrence v. Texas, No. 02-102 Legislators are especially concerned for the health, safety and well-being of those who may seek to engage in same-sex sodomy. As Amici Texas Physicians Resource Council, et al. in their brief pointed out, "men who have sex with men, perhaps 2 percent of the U.S. population ( supra note 12),

• SODOMY : Texas Phys.Resource Council, Christian Med. & Dental Association, Catholic Med.Association A 1993 report from the Alan Guttmacher Institute found that only 1.1% of 3,321 men surveyed were exclusively homosexual, and only 2.3% had engaged in sex with another man in the prior ten years . John O.G. Billy, et al., The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States , Family Planning Perspectives, Alan Guttmacher Institute (March/April 1993). Another random survey found that about 2 percent of the men surveyed had sex with a man in the prior 12 months. Robert T. M ichael, et al., S EX IN A MERICA : A D EFINITIVE S URVEY 175 (1994). A survey of 34,706 students in grades 7-12 found that 1 percent reported any homosexual experience. Gary Remafedi, et al., Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents , 89 Pediatrics No.4, 714, 719 (1992). No random survey has found significantly higher percentages of men who have sex with men on a regular basis.

• POST #275 ref - HRC Petitioners brief , page 16, footnote 42,

[BibChr]

<<>Trying to reason on this subject is pointless with someone who simply refuses to draw any distinction between homosexuals and NAMBLA or the KKK.>>

Dirty Harry says, "A man's got to know his limitations." If you know logic is yours, I guess you've got to go with that for now.

Dan

[scripter]

which "facts" are those?

Did you read the link I provided which demonstrated the homosexual agenda from their own book? The facts presented in that link are some of the facts I'm talking about but if you're too busy posting obfuscation then I can see how you might have missed it.

Nice bit of sophistry, calling me pro-gay.

Your arguments are pro-gay. Are you anti-gay?

[tdadams]

I'm pro-everyone-mind-your-own-business.

[tdadams]

Other than a trite and baseless quip, do you have anything to say that refutes my point?