Lesbian Catholic religious education coordinator denied award from the Archdiocese of St. Paul

The Star Tribune ^ | 02.22.03

[Coleus]

A Catholic religious education coordinator was denied an award from the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis Wednesday evening because she is a lesbian, prompting a protest at the dinner honoring the other 17 recipients.

About 200 members of St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church demonstrated Wednesday night in support of Kathy Itzin, the church's religious education coordinator. Itzin, a member of St. Joan's, was to be one of 18 archdiocesan workers honored for their work in teaching young people about the faith. She is in a relationship with a partner, and they have four children, ages 10 to 16.

[Coleus]

Yes, they should start following their very own catechism.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

Good in theory for ministering to the sick and profoundly base, but like the BSA has found it’s rightful to discriminate between certain unrepentant behavior for fear of its further corruption.

[Clint N. Suhks]

It's the same as letting someone work for you and then not paying them because they are homosexual or black or a woman.

Umm…chosen behavior is NOT the same as innate characteristic. It's like comparing apples to cow pies.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Her work is still good regardless.

So are incestuals who work in the Church, giving an award to one through the Church is an endorsement by the Church and a shame on its integrity. It’s an entirely different matter if the women were to have repented and confessed her sins but we know that’s not what she wants by her own actions.

[fatima]

Bump.

[JohnnyZ]

She did good work for the church. It is commonly known she is a lesbian. It was announced she is going to get an award for her good work for the church.

"After receiving the nomination [of Itzin] for the catechetical award, the archdiocese subsequently learned of her public expression of a lifestyle inconsistent with Catholic doctrine." While the archbishop said her service of 20 years to the church in various teaching and social justice efforts was "commendable, even so she will not be receiving the catechetical award since catechesis involves the public teaching and support of the beliefs of the Catholic Church."

Part of the work she was doing for the church was setting an example as a catechist, as the article clearly states. She clearly and publicly failed in this. Her failure was apparently not known at first; this constitutes fraud on the part of her church which likely nominated her with descriptions of her successes while hiding her failings. Once the truth came out, however, the award was retracted.

[JohnnyZ]

It's important to remember that excommunication is not something the Church does. It's not like they throw people out of the Church. It's just a formal recognition that the person has already thrown himself out of communion with the Church by virtue of their actions, etc.

Lots of people are excommunicated without the Church's formal acknowledgement thereof.

Of course, the penalties of excommunication probably won't be applied if God's the only one who knows about it.

[Elsie]

Refusing her the award because she's a lesbian "doesn't sound very Godlike to us," he said.

OH?

You want something GODLIKE, huh?

 

Ok then....................

 

---

NIV Genesis 18:20-21
 20.  Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
 21.  that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." 

 

 

 

NIV Genesis 19:1-14

 1.  The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
 2.  "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."   "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
 3.  But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate.
 4.  Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. 
 5.  They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
 6.  Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
 7.  and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
 8.  Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
 9.  "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
 10.  But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.
 11.  Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
 12.  The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
 13.  because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
 14.  So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry  his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

 

---

 

People STILL think that God is 'joking'!!!!!

[biblewonk]

You can never have too many lesbian catholic religious education coordinators.

[newgeezer]

(from the article) We uphold Sacred Catholic Tradition and Scripture

Pecking order and capital 'T' duly noted.

[wideawake]

Technically she has not been excommunicated, jimt. But she certainly can be excommunicated, ninenot.

She has caused public scandal by openly living in a sexually perverted and evil manner.

Such public scandal can be punished by excommunication if the ordinary sees fit to do so.

MoR, your arguments are specious. The pastor violated his trust by hiring her (if he knew) or not firing her (if he found out later). The bishop is not necessarily at fault for assuming that a local pastor was doing his job properly and not hiring vicious sexual perverts.

Moreover, if her job was that of catechesis, what are the chances of her having done her job properly and thereby deserving an "award" for her work? Very slim. I can't imagine she gave a forceful and correct exposition of Church teaching on the evils of sexual perversion.

Further, your analogy of nonpayment is ridiculous on its face. I doubt the terms of her employment specified that she would be given specific awards - withholding an award from this perverted hypocrite is hardly equivalent to withholding wages.

[biblewonk]

Pecking order and capital 'T' duly noted.

LOL. The bible is to the RC as the rifle is to the French soldier.

[wideawake]

Pecking order and capital 'T' duly noted.

LOL. The bible is to the RC as the rifle is to the French soldier.

I'll note two facts for the record: (1) I am a Roman Catholic and (2) I read my Bible every day and have learned Hebrew and Greek just to get to understand it better.

I know you guys do not agree with the Catholic position and probably never will, but it can't hurt you to know what the actual position is.

(1) The Bible is the very Word of God, free from all error or contradiction, and a sure norm of faith.

(2) The Holy Spirit guides the Church in interpreting the Bible.

So far we probably agree, with the caveat that you may believe that it is only the individual believer and not the Church as a whole which is guided by the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Bible.

Here is where we diverge:

Catholics believe that there is an interpretive tradition given to the Church which enables it to interpret Scripture correctly. We believe that this is among the gifts given to the Church at Pentecost - the ability of the Apostles to understand what Christ taught them and to proclaim it to others.

To analogize: perhaps you read the Scriptures and make use of commentaries to aid you in your study.

For a Catholic, tradition is essentially an authoritative, inerrant commentary continuously given by the Holy Spirit to the Church.

Your position is probably that the Bible is self-interpreting - a position which you're certainly entitled to, but a position which has certain inherent contradictions.

So it is erroneous to assume (a) that Tradition is either unScriptural or somehow independent and apart from Scripture and (b) Catholics neither read nor study their Bibles as seriously as you do.

There are plenty of people who claim to be Catholics who never read their Bibles. There are also plenty of people who claim to be Bible Christians who are similarly lax and who lack your level of commitment.

[biblewonk]

Your position is probably that the Bible is self-interpreting - a position which you're certainly entitled to, but a position which has certain inherent contradictions.

Almost with some known addendums like the need for the Holy Spirit and a bit of discipleship.

So it is erroneous to assume (a) that Tradition is either unScriptural or somehow independent and apart from Scripture and (b) Catholics neither read nor study their Bibles as seriously as you do.

It would be bad to think that all tradition is always bad all the time. I think all tradition should be challenged by scripture all the time. But when I see Marianism I know that the RC system has taken tradition to new lows.

There are plenty of people who claim to be Catholics who never read their Bibles. There are also plenty of people who claim to be Bible Christians who are similarly lax and who lack your level of commitment.

My statement was not about reading but about authority. When RC's are faced with a scriptural challenge or asked for scripture to back their marianism, it is then that they abandon the bible.

But thanks for the response. :-)

[wideawake]

When RC's are faced with a scriptural challenge or asked for scripture to back their marianism, it is then that they abandon the bible.

I'll never back off from a Scriptural challenge - I believe that Scripture and tradition are intimately connected.

The Catholic doctrines concerning Mary are based on two Scriptural interpretations that inform Catholic doctrine: (1) that God allows us a participatory and not just an instrumental role in His work of salvation and (2) the communion of the saints in the Church.

In the case of Mary in particular, her participatory role in the work of salvation finds its doctrinal seat in Luke 1 and in Revelation 12. The teaching concerning the communion of saints in the Church pervades the entire Bible but is most succinctly expressed in 1 Corinthians 12.

The essential teaching concerning Mary - found in the official teaching of the Church in the two great catechisms, the ecumenical councils and the papal encyclicals - is rather straightforward.

Mary was humble, faithful and obedient to God because she was filled with grace. She assented to cooperate with God by affirming His plan to bring His Son into the world through her as a vessel.

When she went to her reward of eternal life her special graces gave her a special place of honor in Heaven.

Because we Catholics affirm the communion of saints we believe that we can address the saints regardless of whether they are physically dead - because they are actually more alive than we are.

Therefore Mary, being the greatest saint because God favored her with the most precious gift, is a model of Christian living and a saint whom we Catholics most like to address - asking her to pray for us in much the same way we would ask our friends or pastor to pray for us.

I don't know quite how to describe it, but imagine if St. Paul were alive today - how much respect would we show him? How happy would we be if someone like him found our petitions worth adding to his own prayers to the Lord?

For a Catholic, we feel that Mary and Paul and Peter and the other saints are present to us, are members of our Church like we are.

This attitude comes precisely from the way we read the Bible.

[Coleus]

Yep, and don't forget why God flooded the earth. Although it's not written in the Bible, the implied intent was for Sodomy and cohabitation whith animals as one Orthodox Jew explained to me once before.

[biblewonk]

This attitude comes precisely from the way we read the Bible.

I would certainly agree with that, though not happily. More later.

[biblewonk]

For a Catholic, we feel that Mary and Paul and Peter and the other saints are present to us, are members of our Church like we are.

I know you think that. I know it is tradition for you to think that. The bible certainly states that the dead are not dead but the idea that they can hear our requests is not there. The idea that they can intercede for us is not there.

[wideawake]

The idea that they can intercede for us is not there.

There is no passage in Scripture which specifically says that Christians enjoying eternal life can intercede for Christians who are living in this world.

Of course, there is no passage in Scripture which says they cannot.

What Scripture does say is as follows:

(1) That the faithful can intercede for others - i.e. offer up prayers on their behalf. cf. Stephen's prayers for his persecutors, Abraham's prayer for Abimelech, etc., etc.

(2) Scripture also says that the saints in heaven offer up prayers to God. cf. Revelation 8.

(3) Scripture also says that the Church is one, cf. John 10 and

(4) that believers make up the body of Christ, cf. 1 Corinthians 12 and

(5) that the sign of Christian unity and identity is mutual love, cf. John 13, and

(6) that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, cf. Romans 8.

Given this Scriptural evidence, St. Jerome - a cherisher of the Bible if there ever was one - drew the inference that since (a) both the faithful departed and the living faithful are part of the same Church, (b) that they all had the ability to pray for one another in life, (c) that eternal life with Christ does not weaken or diminish the faculties of the faithful departed at all, but strengthens them and that (d) the saints in heaven pray then it makes eminent good sense that the faithful departed can listen and respond to our brotherly requests for intercession.

So Scripture does authorize intercessory prayer. It does assert that the saints pray. It does assert that the Church is one body.

The one piece of the puzzle that is not explicitly there is that the saints can hear us.

Catholics believe that the mutual love in Christ which Christians share with the glorified saints makes this feasible.

Others perhaps believe, with St. Jerome's interlocutor Vigilantius, that the saints in heaven are somehow less capable in their glory rather than more.

Catholics believe that this does not follow the logic of Scripture, which teaches that the glorified state of eternal life is superior in all respects to earthly life.

[biblewonk]

Of course, there is no passage in Scripture which says they cannot.

And that is precisely how RC's "use" the bible. It's all a matter of "what can we get away with because it is not expressly forbidden".