Why is the USA the World's Divorce Leader? (Poll + FReeper's book on Dr. Laura)

www.knowingme-knowingyou.com ^ | May 28, 2003 | Malcolm B. Stephens

[Tall_Texan]

"...and, if I ever am married, intend to demand fidelity and to never engage in it myself."

Freudian slip or the perils of a run-on sentence?

[Dont Tread On Me Eh?]

One theory I'd put out there for the difference between Canada's divorce rate and that of the U.S. is that Canada is much more Catholic than the U.S. is, and I would say that Catholics are much less likely to get divorced. I'm from Canada and living in Texas now, and the number of divorcees that I see around me is absolutely astounding.

[MalcolmS]

We're not sure whether our friend's marriage will make it. It would have in China, but now the wife compares how her husband treats her (typical for China) compared to how my husband treats me (I'm married to a wonderful man who shows his love freely). So they might get divorced here, a marriage that would have stayed together in China. I have to wonder if that happens to immigrants from other regions as well.

That's very interesting.

Kinda creates a paradox though. If I'm a great husband, I might cause other men's wives to divorce them because they don't stack up. Too bad it doesn't work the other way--that your friend's husband would follow your guy's example.

[ladyjane]

Adultery was not common in early America.

My understanding, from friends who do a lot of old record searches (they're into geneology) is that there were a lot of children born out of wedlock. They do primarily New England, perhaps it is different for other sections of the country.

[twigs]

We're hoping. I try to spend time with the wife and my husband with her husband. We talk a lot about differences between the sexes and how to realistically deal with them. But it's not just us. We think that couples from other cultures, particularly the wives, see that women are treated with more respect here, on the whole. When you see other women enjoying that, you begin to want it for yourself.

[MalcolmS]

One theory I'd put out there for the difference between Canada's divorce rate and that of the U.S. is that Canada is much more Catholic than the U.S. is, and I would say that Catholics are much less likely to get divorced. I'm from Canada and living in Texas now, and the number of divorcees that I see around me is absolutely astounding.

That's an interesting theory and one that gets at the question in the title, comparing the US to other countries. It would also explain the Italian statistics.

It also lends some support to the premise of the article. The Church provides social pressure disapproving of divorce, and also supports marriage through programs like Marriage Encounter (I'm going from memory, I hope I have that right).

[twigs]

I do genealogy and you're right. I remember reading one study that the number of children born sooner than 8 months after marriage in Puritan New England was much higher than expected--30% maybe? I don't remember for sure, but it was surprising. That may have been the result of bundling. Southern states had a high out of wedlock rate too, but probably for different reasons. On the frontier, families did not have easy access to ministers, so they got informally married and had to wait for the preacher to come fhrough to make it legal. Plus out of wedlock births were also very high in England during the 19th century, during industrialization when young women went to the cities to get jobs away from family and village. Not sure about other countries.

[iconoclast]

Sounds like it's going to be a brave new world

IMHO, If you are over 60, its been a brave new world for some time.

[Roxymoron]

LOL! Boy, I must have really been bleary-eyed last night (it was around 11 my time, after all); I obviously meant I would never commit any infidelity in a marriage myself, as well as demanding fidelity from my husband. That should teach me not to post that late, after a long day!

[iconoclast]

you have given the very best post of all.

I second that!

[Tall_Texan]

hehehe. I knew what you meant, just illustrating what happens when competing thoughts enter the same sentence. Reminds me of this alleged call at a baseball game:

"The centerfielder is drifting back for the ball. Back. Back. He hits his head against the wall!! He picks it up and throws it into second base."

The danger of using any pronoun is in introducing two nouns that can both be logically thought to represent that pronoun. Anytime you use "it", "him", "her" or "them", read backwards to see which noun was the last used that could fit the pronoun. If it's not the one you intended, restate the noun.

Sorry for the English lecture. But we all have to apply our degrees somewhere...

[MalcolmS]

Latest (non-randomized unscientific) Poll Results

Blame Hollywood: 0%
Divorce is too easy to obtain: 3%
Men behaving badly: 3%
Women behaving badly: 6%
Unrealistic Expections/Lack of preparation: 39%
No Stigma about divorce/Lack of marriage support: 48%

What? No one blaming Hollywood? I'm shocked!

Seriously, thanks everyone. This has been a very educational thread. Several important insights have been posted.

[Arthalion]

I think there's another hidden statistic driving the divorce rates: youth marriage. Many kids today see marriage as a normal part of adulthood (which may be why the media doesn't talk about it...they want kids to think that marriage is dead), and an increasing number of young people are marrying straight out of high school or even while they're still in high school! At 17 or 18 years old, these kids are marrying each other to prove that they're "all grown up", and they are NOT prepared for the responsibility and the changes that come along with that. I should know, at 18 I married my 17 year old girlfriend. All of my friends were doing it, it seemed to be a good way to prove that I was a "man", and I had visions of having sex every night without having to worry about upset parents or priests (yeah, right!)

What kids don't understand is that while they're legally adults at 18, they are NOT yet done growing mentally. They have a lot to learn, and a lot of maturing yet to do. As we mature, out personalitities change, and a LOT of these kids later find themselves married to people they wouldn't want to even be friends with, much less sleep with. I have friends who married conservative Christian girls at 17 who were foul mouthed sluts by 25. I knew one guy in high school who married a liberal, sexually promiscuous harlot three days after graduation, only to watch in horror (<--humor) as she turned into his mother, a Bible thumping born-again, in the following years. In fact, at my recent 10 year reunion, I discovered that out of the 13 couples and old friends who had married within two years of graduating high school, my wife and I were the only ones still married. Some were lucky and had a clean, childless split, while others spent the whole reunion grousing over the "unfairness" of child support (I actually spent 20 minutes talking to one old friend about how his child support payments were killing him financially, and later spoke to another old friend, his ex-wife, about how she was barely making it and needed more money out of him). What's worse, this trend shows no sign of slowing down. My younger sister was married three times by age 23. My cousin was married at 18, divorced by nineteen, married again six months later, annulled that one after a month, married again at 21, divorced by 23...etc...she's now 26 and on husband five with four little ones.

Working at a college, I tend to see countless 18-19 year old men and women wearing wedding bands...and overhear far too many conversations about how they're considering divorce because "she has changed" or "he used to be so different". They just don't get how bad an idea marrying young really is, because they have no comprehension of how much they change between 18 and 25. It's really sad.

[TheBattman]

Sounds very familiar!

[MalcolmS]

>>>Youth Marriage<<<

Interesting post. I remember hearing about study that shows that people's personalities are in flux until about age 30.

This creates a bit of problem if you want kids though. Women's fertility starts declining around age 27. Say you get married at 30 (to a spouse whose personality is now stable), then it takes you a few years to buy a house in the 'burbs, etc. By the time you're ready to have kids, you may not be able to.

I don't know what the answer is. I wonder if this has always been the case, or if this late maturity is some effect of modern life?

[Arthalion]

I wonder if this has always been the case, or if this late maturity is some effect of modern life?

Modern American life. We coddle our kids, we teach them that they're not responsible for their actions as kids, and we don't impose any burdens on them in the hopes that they will "enjoy their childhoods". While this may go a long way towards creating "happy childhood memories", the flipside is that we never impose any real responsibility or adversity on our kids. Ultimately, it's responsibility and adversity that build our character and create our "real" personalities.

Prior to the Baby Boomers generation, most children started having "adult" responsibilities shoved on them starting at age 11 or 12. Things like cooking dinner, watching younger siblings all day without pay, and even holding down part time jobs weren't done for "fun" or as a "chore", but were required...failing to do them could cause the family to cease functioning, go broke, or worse. This kind of adversity and responsibility at a young age tended to mature children faster and give them more of an adult-like view of the world. Even though children in most of the rest of the world still go through this, America since the 1950's has done it's best to keep these types of burdens away from its children. It may make for a fun childhood, but the result is that most of our kids aren't faced with real life-changing choices and problems until they're out on their own. This later exposure to adversity means later maturity, and later personality development.

What do we do about it? I don't really know. I certainly wouldn't advocate putting children to work in factories or starving them if they don't sell enough apples on the street corner, and I can't think of any other way to instill the kind of maturity they'd need. Chores won't work because, ultimately, kids know that they're fluff. Nobody is going to die if the lawn doesn't get mowed, and nobody is going to starve if they don't make dinner (they know their parents will make something, even if they know they'll get punished). It's not until they face the kinds of responsibilities that we adults face every day, the "I have to go to work to pay my mortgage so I won't have to live under a bridge" kind of responsibility, that they'll really grow up. And I'm just not sure that we can recreate that without giving up the very advantages of western childhood that we WANT for our children.

[MalcolmS]

Does this mean Pat Buchannan is right? It's the death of the West?

Our lifestyle leads to late onset of maturity.

When we get married late enough to create a stable family, we have trouble having enough kids to replace ourselves and keep the population stable.

Hmmmmm....I hope not.

[T. Jefferson]

Why are some men such jerks?

Psychologists and divorce attorneys say this is indicative of an unfolding pattern.

#1 Jerk Phase:

The initial snapping point in the marriage when he realizes she will never drop 100 lbs. or be nice, or anything remotely resembling the woman in the ceremony.

#2 Realization Phase

The recognition that the lazy, vicious, self centered thing lounging in his home, while resembling Shamu the Whale, actually is discovered to be Satan.

#3 End of Denial Phase

After years of ignoring his countless best friends' advice, (all of whom dumped their angry cattle years ago), a light goes off. His friends, who retired in Rio de Janeiro years ago wealthy (with just $100,000), are currently on the beach with a fleet of gorgeous, passionate, exceeding nice young swimsuit models; the group are holding up umbrella drinks toasting him; "and someday may our stubborn, miserable married buddy see the light."

#4 Termination Phase:

The most procrastinated and feared phase..this is the day he writes the largest and most undeserving check in his career to the person who destroyed his life.

#5 Reunion Phase:

After just 5 minutes with his insightful friends on Copacabana beach, he learns the previous phase was the greatest emotional and financial decision he will make in his life. With a model in each arm, he strolls in the sand watching the breathtaking sunset, grinning ear to ear, thus beginning the happily ever after phase.

[paul51]

this is the day he writes the largest and most undeserving check in his career to the person who destroyed his life

Do you mean the one to her or the attorney?