The War Over Fetal Rights

MSNBC.COM ^ | 6/1/03 | Debra Rosenberg

[GirlyGirl2003]

The War Over Fetal Rights By Debra Rosenberg, Newsweek It was nearly Valentine's Day, 1992, when Tracy Marciniak's estranged husband, Glenndale Black, showed up at her Wisconsin apartment. A 28-year-old mother of two, Marciniak was expecting another baby in just five days. But the night was hardly romantic. Within hours, the two argued and Black punched her in the stomach. "IT FELT LIKE IT had gone all the way through me," says Marciniak, now 39. The baby, whom she'd already named Zachariah, had seemed fine on a prenatal visit just the day before, she says. But when she arrived at the hospital that night, doctors couldn't find his heartbeat. Marciniak pulled through, but the baby did not. Because Zachariah was not considered a "born person," prosecutors could not charge Black with homicide. They attempted to try him under an old state law banning illegal abortion, but Black's lawyer argued that the baby would have been stillborn anyway. In the end, a jury convicted Black of reckless injury and sentenced him to 12 years in prison. Though Marciniak has long supported abortion rights, she became furious when she discovered that the law didn't protect her unborn son--and that women's groups wouldn't back her quest for a state law punishing his killer. Now she is allied with the National Right to Life, appearing in an ad for the federal Unborn Victims of Violence Act. "There were two victims," Marciniak says. "He got away with murder." See the rest of the article here: Click

[GirlyGirl2003]

The Question: Do The Unborn Have Rights?

The Answer: Would You Deny This Child The Right To Life?

Great Websites:

Matt Drudge

Tracey Report

Rush Limbaugh

[The Hon. Galahad Threepwood]

Though Marciniak has long supported abortion rights, she became furious when she discovered that the law didn't protect her unborn son--and that women's groups wouldn't back her quest for a state law punishing his killer.

Sorry, babe. You can't have it both ways. Either killing a fetus is homicide, no matter who kills it, or it isn't homicide, no matter who kills it.

[Brad's Gramma]

The Question: Do The Unborn Have Rights?

You can judge a society by the way it treats it's most helpless.

[buffyt]

It is not a choice...
It is a child!!!!!!!!

[Jim Noble]

In science class, the kids can hold a robin's egg and be taught that there is a baby bird inside.

Nobody refers to the baby bird as a "glob of tissue" or a "lump of cells". Even to say it sounds absurd.

What's the problem with baby humans?

[afraidfortherepublic]

Bump

[afraidfortherepublic]

This is a picture of Sam Amas at 3 1/2 in front of his home. He is the "fetus" whose tiny hand reached out from the womb to clutch the surgeon's finger in that picture and who captured the hearts of millions.

I rest my case.

[Mr. Silverback]

Welcome to FreeRepublic, GirlyGirl!

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

[jwalsh07]

Is this a person?

[buffyt]

GOD BLESS LITTLE SAM!!!

It is good to see our prayers answered!

[buffyt]

Looks like a human being to me. Dr. Ron Paul is a congressman, a friend of mine, and a doctor. He told me that the Constitution promises us the RIGHT TO LIFE, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness. First and foremost is the RIGHT TO LIFE.

[jwalsh07]

First and foremost is the RIGHT TO LIFE.

Well buffyt, I don't always agree with Ron PAul but I sure the heck do here.

[cpforlife.org]

Special PING for MHG!!!

RE: this article: The War Over Fetal Rights, go to the actual article for an on-line talk this Wednesday. After reading the whole article, I think you should definitely be there MHG.

Submit your questions to Claudia Kalb on the rights of the unborn,(in advance at the article) then join her for a talk on Wednesday, June 4, at noon ET .

[cpforlife.org]

Please let me know if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.

[MHGinTN]

I wonder how many pro-abortion, 'women's right to liberty trumps a fetus's right to life' people can just two things the woman's body does in a pregnancy, re the unborn fetus?

[cpforlife.org]

Dear GirlyGirl2003,

Howdy and Welcome to Free Republic!!

from your friends at

[votelife]

Dear President Bush,
With the Surpeme Court session getting ready to close, it may well be time for perhaps the most important domestic decision of your presidency: the appointment of a Supreme Court Justice(s). The main reason why I supported you in 2000 and why I wanted Daschle out of power in 02 (and 04) has to do with the courts. I want America courts to interpret law, not write law. During your presidential campaign you said Thomas and Scalia were your two model justices. Those are excellent models. The High Court needs more like them. Clarence Thomas recently said to students that the tough cases were when what he wanted to do was different from what the law said. And he goes by the law. This should be a model philosophy for our justices. Your father, President Bush lost his reelection campaign for 3 main reasosn, as far as I can see. 1. he broke the no new taxes pledge 2. David Souter 3. Clinton convinced people we were in a Bush recession (which we had already come out of by the time Clinton was getting sworn in)

I urge you to learn from all three of these: 1. on taxes, you're doing great. Awesome job on the tax cut. 2. good job so far on judicial appointments. I want to see more of a fight for Estrada, Owen, and Pickering, but I commend you on your nominations. 3. by staying engaged in the economic debate you'll serve yourself well

I have been thoroughly impressed with your handling of al Queida, Iraq, and terrorism. You have inspired confidence and have shown great leadership.

But I want to remind you that your Supreme Court pick(s) will be with us LONG after you have departed office. I urge you to avoid the tempation to find a "compromise" pick. Go for a Scalia or Thomas. Don't go for an O'Connor or Kennedy. To be specific, get someone who is pro-life. Roe v Wade is one of the worst court decisions I know of, and it's the perfect example of unrestrained judicial power.

I know the temptation will be tremendous on you to nominate a moderate. But remember who your true supporters are. I am not a important leader or politician. I am "simply" a citizen who has been an enthusiatic supporter of you. I am willing to accept compromise in many areas of government but I will watch your Court nomiantions extremely closely. What the Senate Dems are doing right now is disgusting, but as the President you have the bully pulpit to stop it. Democrats will back down if you turn up serious heat on them.

Moreover, I think public opinion is shifting towards the pro-life position. Dems will want you to nominate a moderate, but almost all will vote against you anyways. Pro-choice Repubs will likely still vote for you if you nominate a Scalia, after all, you campaigned on it. So Mr. President, I urge you to stick with your campaign statements and nominate justices who believe in judicial restraint, like Scalia and Thomas.

Happy Memorial Day and may God bless you and your family.

[cpforlife.org]

Hi all,

check out:
Live Talk: Rights of the Unborn at:

http://www.msnbc.com/m/nw/talk/talk.asp?lt=060403_kalb

With the Laci Peterson case making headlines and Congress poised to tackle both the Unborn Victims of Violence Act and the ban on partial-birth abortion this month, fetal rights have found new prominence on the public stage. Recent dramatic breakthroughs in fetal and reproductive medicine only add to the confusion. With doctors joining sperm and egg in a petri dish, and sometimes freezing the leftovers to be implanted later in a woman's uterus, the question of when life begins takes on new resonance. Abortion foes hope to take advantage of the new technology and sympathetic political environment to win fresh support. So far, though, a woman's right to choose remains the law, and the fight over fetal and embryonic rights remains in a delicate stalemate. Can the law can protect fetuses without eroding the rights their mothers fought so hard to win? Join us for a Live Talk on Wednesday, June 4, at noon ET with Claudia Kalb about new medical breakthroughs and rights for the unborn. Submit questions anytime. Submit questions any time.


New: During Live Talks, you can chat with the other audience members in MSNBC's News Chat.



Claudia Kalb, who works primarily on health stories for the magazine, was named general editor in June 1999. She has just returned from a 2001-2002 John S. Knight Fellowship at Stanford University. Before being promoted to general editor, Kalb had been an associate editor since September 1998 and a correspondent in the Boston bureau, where she had covered general assignments in the New England area since December 1997. Before that, she served as a reporting intern and then a reporter, both in the Boston bureau. She has also been a researcher in New York and a reporting intern in NEWSWEEK's Chicago bureau. Kalb's recent reporting on medical and health issues has included many cover stories. Prior to joining NEWSWEEK in 1994, Kalb worked as a researcher and reporter at the Freedom Forum Media Studies Center in New York. She has also interned at the Associated Press, Boston Magazine and the Jakarta Post in Indonesia, where she published several educational books.

[Victoria Delsoul]

With the recent murders of Laci Peterson and her unborn son, Conner, nearly 9 months old, abortion-rights supporters are finding it increasingly difficult to claim credibly that a fetus just a few weeks, or even days, from delivery is not entitled to at least some protections under the law-but they vigorously argue against such laws anyway, fearing that giving a fetus rights will lead to the collapse of abortion protections. "If they are able to make fetuses people in law with the same standing as women and men, then Roe will be moot," says Planned Parenthood president Gloria Feldt.

Unbelievable. These people are so frightened the laws would change in favor of the unborn they can't acknowledge that a fetus is a child distinct from his/her mother.

If a drunk driver hits a pregnant women and the baby dies, he or she can be convicted of manslaughter. Even if that mother was on her way to an abortion clinic. How can you base someone's worth on only one thing - how other people view them?

If an abortion is attempted and the child survives (and this does happen), doctors are required to try and save him or her. Along these lines, if the fetus is termed viable, the abortionist is required to choose the method of abortion which will most likely result in a live birth.
-- Teen Pregnancy Information Center

[Salvation]

Yes, the unborn have rights. Look at the death of Conner Peterson!

Life begins at conception.

Keep telling the world!

[MHGinTN]

From the article :

Dr. Jamie Grifo, a reproductive endocrinologist at New York University who has helped pioneer new infertility techniques such as pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, says the worry over working with embryos has already had a chilling effect. “There are no projects that we’re doing right now because we’re afraid of the politics,” he says angrily. “We’re making people parents who wouldn’t be otherwise. What’s the problem here?”

Indeed, what IS the problem with commoditizing and screening embryos, even before they're implanted into a woman's body for continued life support? Dr. Grifo has already reached the utilitarian conclusion that embryos are not human INDIVIDUALS ... and society is expected to endorse that assumption because Dr. Grifo is an IVF specialist "... making people parent's who wouldn't be otherwise." The dehumanization of the embryo (at that definition will be strictly applied right to the end of the first two months following conception?) has been accepted by society and the entire of IVF is now endorsed in the void of embryological truth ignored.

Is the embryo the first age of a human lifetime begun at conception? ... If the embryo is discarded, will the individual human life of the ORGANISM called embryo, that particular embryo, continue? ... Is the embryo an ORGANISM, or merely a collection of complex pluripotent cells? ... If the embryo is not an ORGANISM, at what stage in the continuum of a particular lifetime begun at conception will that life be defined as an ORGANISM?

The unmitigated truth is, the human embryo IS an ORGANISM, a unique individual human lifetime already running. The embryo, if allowed to continue alive is already a living human ORGANISM. A collection of cells, if an embryo, is an ORGANISM. A collection of cancerous cells will never be an ORGANISM. A gestating ORGANISM builds its own body, its own organs, and continuously struggles to survive as an ORGANISM replicating an already alive member of the species. [Yes, replicating, just as your body will do continuously throughout the vast majority of your lifetime! We are constantly building and re-building our bodies, and the process starts with first cell division following conception, when you were at the age of embryo, then fetus, then neonate, the toddler, etc., as a lifetime of an individual HUMAN ORGANISM.]

Being a human being has many ages, many developmental phases. Embryo is one of those. If folks want to use these individual lives for pregnancies, therapies, research, storage, adoption, or garbage, at least know that the lies dehumanizing the embryos as something less than a HUMAN ORGANISM are just that, lies, lies meant to defend the utilitarian exploitation of human individuals smaller and younger than those doing the manipulations. And men like Dr. Grifo have adopted their brand of alternate truth (a lie by any other name) as it befits their chosen reality, regardless of the greater reality that may be involved.

There are no projects that we’re doing right now because we’re afraid of the politics,” he (Dr. Grifo) says angrily. Yes, I don't wonder that he's angry, for the ethics and morality of IVF and embryo manipulation is suddenly resurfacing, to call into question his brand of exploiting individual human lives.

One last point: watch for the term 'therapeutic cloning' to disappear from the arguments for cloning, to be replaced by the even more ambiguous term 'research cloning', with the full complement of obfuscatory claims and half truths posing that form of cloning as nothing like 'reproductive cloning'. The parsing, dissembling, and deceit (via partial truth) will grow to astonishing proportions in the weeks to come. Too much money is at stake if the cloning programs are banned by law. Too many research programs already doing cloning will have to stop and wait upon the other scientists seeking the secrets of genetic engineering and utilization of a person's own stem cells, without conceiving and killing for harvest the youngest aged individual human ORGANISMS.

[hocndoc]

At least in Texas, the child will soon be protected and Moma will have recourse if someone violates her child's rights.

[cpforlife.org]

From the article: A 3-D ultrasound image taken of the development of a fetus (clockwise from upper left) at seven, nine, 13, 16, 23 and 35 weeks

IMO-If people can look at these babies with this new technology and read the scientific facts about PEOPLE before birth and continue the abortion holocaust, then they are probably starting their own personal hell right here on earth.

[Victoria Delsoul]

Bump!

[MHGinTN]

You might as well face it, my friend, there are a lot more people in America than we'd like willing to admit that the 'things' being killed at a rate of 1.2 million a year in America by abortionists ARE alive children, yet these people are unequivocally convinced that a woman's right to liberty is superior to another alive individual's right to LIFE. These same minds are set to endorse cannibalism as enlightened medical advancement because of the utilitarian value.

[MHGinTN]

I wouldn't get too excited over this 'discussion'. The liberal bias is such that sound-byte rhetoric will rule the emotional and rational scientific discourse will be manipulated to establish , at the very least, ambiguity. I did send several questions, but look for them to be re-pgrased to suit the strawman argument someone live on the show can burn down.

My primary question was, "Is the alive human embryo a human ORGANISM?" Then, "If it is not deemed an ORGANISM, when in the lifetime continuum of the 'thing' would the guests define the alive thing' an individual human ORGANISM?" I also asked, "Is it correct to define organs as the same as an organism?" And I asked, "Which age along the continuum of an individual lifetime is the starting point: embryo, fetus, neonate, toddler, pubescent. ... Which one is the defining age when the ORGANISM begun at conception shall be deemed worthy of protection as a fellow individual human rather than a source for harvesting body parts?"

I have participated in debates such as the above mentioned coming to MS NBC (on local forums), and every one not in a church setting has been tilted to either defend the specious preconceived notions of 'choice' or foster ambiguity regarding the unborn. I don't expect this to any different. If it is, I'll write to Shapiro and thank him, personally!

[Coleus]

http://www.michaelclancy.com/

[cpforlife.org]

"You might as well face it, my friend, there are a lot more people in America than we'd like willing to admit that the 'things' being killed at a rate of 1.2 million a year in America by abortionists ARE alive children, yet these people are unequivocally convinced that a woman's right to liberty is superior to another alive individual's right to LIFE. These same minds are set to endorse cannibalism as enlightened medical advancement because of the utilitarian value."

You are right; it is virtually impossible to override the utilitarian ethic as things are. That is primarily because the pro-life movement has for 30 years been fighting a loosing political battle while ignoring the unstoppable power of thoroughly educating tens of millions of Christian school students on the sanctity of life.

I KNEW that that was indeed the fact after the first Clinton veto on Partial Birth Abortion/Murder Ban. The vast majority of people went back to business as usual, aware of what was/is going on. That’s when I started to get involved and quickly realized that we could not end this holocaust without a new generation of Christians fully educated on the sanctity of life. THE MISSING KEY OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT

[goodseedhomeschool]

YOu are so right!!!! She sure cannot have it both ways.

[goodseedhomeschool]

I'll bet if someone stepped on a bald eagle's egg, the animal rights groups, many of whom wholeheartedly support abortion, would not let it rest until the eagle killer was given the electric chair. Just goes to show you where people's priorities are. How sad this world has become. Pray for the unborn babies being slaughtered every day by butchers across America.

[goodseedhomeschool]

ping

[GirlyGirl2003]

You radical right winger! How dare you talk of God, Patriotism, and the rights of the unborn! Why, the next thing we know, you'll be talking about the unalienable rights of Americans, and the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms!

Your FBI file must be a foot thick!

Just teasing!

GirlyGirl

[GirlyGirl2003]

Jim,

Yes, and think about all the effort that goes into preserving the nests of Bald Eagles and the federal felony that will be slapped on anyone who even touches such a nest. But, the same federal government will help you destroy your unborn child through financial assitance.

GirlyGirl

[farmfriend]

Though Marciniak has long supported abortion rights, she became furious when she discovered that the law didn't protect her unborn son

You can't have it both ways sweetie. Glad she is on our side now.

[GirlyGirl2003]

Except for the very rare instance where a moms life will be in danger if she keeps her child, abortion must be outlawed in America. It must be made illegal! How can we allow this to happen day after day? 2 to 4 thousand babies are legally killed each day in America. Its almost as if we are talking about poor animals at the dog pound.

[GirlyGirl2003]

Is it a "Fetus", or a developing child? The above picture answers that question easily, unless you're twisted.

[GirlyGirl2003]

People need to see things to understand them. Abortion seems so withdrawn from everday life. But, if movies showing the procedure were readily available on the Net, many people would be shocked at the horror of an abortion.

Open the vaccum jar and pull out the filter bag. Lay its contents on the table for all to see......arms, legs, a headless body, and a small face. This is the evil of abortion that few ever get to see, but its time to change that fact.

GirlyGirl

[Texaggie79]

Ron P was supposed to deliver me, but, alas he was in DC....

[exDemMom]

to be replaced by the even more ambiguous term 'research cloning', with the full complement of obfuscatory claims and half truths posing that form of cloning as nothing like 'reproductive cloning'.

What most scientists mean by the word "cloning" is the isolation of a single gene from an organism with its subsequent insertion into a piece of carrier DNA for use in research. Cloning as such has been going on since the 1970s, and is a common technique. That other kind of cloning, although newsworthy, is done very rarely in real life.

[Brian Allen]

Please ping me.

[MHGinTN]

What most scientists mean by the word "cloning" is the isolation of a single gene from an organism with its subsequent insertion into a piece of carrier DNA for use in research. Cloning as such has been going on since the 1970s, and is a common technique. That other kind of cloning, although newsworthy, is done very rarely in real life. NIce try, not honest since you have assumed that which you wish to obfuscate, that the salient 'cloning' is conceiving new ORGANISMS rather than sub-units of organs. The 'other kind of cloning' is what is now endangering our society because it is designed for cannibalizing embryonic (or older, as in early fetal) life conceived through somatic cell nuclear transfer.

The term 'research cloning', as used by the Advanced Cell Technologies people refers directly to somatic cell nuclear transfer into an enucleated human ovum, cloning, conceiving via nuclear transfer (taking the nuclear material--the DNA directives-- from a live donor cell and injecting that DNA into a human ovum which has had the nuclear material removed). This is distinctly not like PCR (which is what you described). While most of the people working in 'cloning' are technicians doing what you describe, the dangers ahead are associated to human reproductive cloning that some scientists are trying to re-name as research cloning simply because they have a different goal with the newly conceived embryos they create, and it doesn't involve being allowed to live until 40weeks from conception and birth, hence they name their cloning as therapeutic/research cloning thought he truth is it starts with reproductive cloning but kills the conceived individual before a birth date.

[cgk]

Apologies for any duplicate pings. Hoping everyone sees this... the tide continues to turn.

Click on the link provided for the article (long, but a good read), and scroll down for this poll, with current stats:

What legal rights should fetuses have?

• The same rights accorded children and adults (66%)

• The same rights, but only after they are viable outside the womb (19%)

• None until they're born (14%)

[cherry_bomb88]

Bump for later reading!!! Thanks, cgk

(((((((((((((((ping))))))))))))))))

[Coleus]

Thanks, I voted last night..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!

[DLfromthedesert]

Thanks for the alert. Science has come a long way since 1973.

[Scothia]

The Coenraadses believe that the only hope for their daughter and for the estimated 15,000 children like her is embryonic stem-cell research, which requires destroying human embryos. "My conscience tells me that for me personally having an abortion would not be the right thing to do. That same conscience tells me that stem-cell research is needed," says Monica, who now helps run the Rett Syndrome Research Foundation from her dining room.

Here are the people who can't have it both ways! "I wouldn't consider aborting my child, but I want yours dead so mine will maybe be healthy."

Congratulations, Coenraadses. You've just made the leap upstairs and joined hypocrites everywhere in the chorus of their hit song "I'm Personally Against Abortion, BUT..."

[Scothia]

The Coenraadses, quoted as supporting stem cell research on living human embryos resulting in the death of those human beings, say that having a daughter born with Rett's Syndrome is what changed their minds.

I have worked with a Rett's Syndrome patient. Susie couldn't talk, but she could certainly communicate. Her sweetness literally lit up the room, any room she was in. Yes, we had to care for her. But doing so was pure joy, because Susie was pure love.

I believe God gives us angels unawares in our midst, such as Susie, to measure the kind of people we are and to teach us compassion. Since our culture seems bent on destroying them before they ever have breath, I guess we can see how we measure up.

[MHGinTN]

I have yet to find the poll of which you speak. Any suggestions as to how to identify it on the MS NBC page?

[MHGinTN]

Don't be too harsh on the Coenraadses. They have likely bought into the lie that a human embryo is not a human organism, and by default therefore not a human being at the age of embryo. This attitude is so pervasive in America that to correct the lie is near impossible now ... and some intelligence had it planned that way, IMHO. We have a poster named exDemMom who is claiming to be a researcher in cell science and she is claiming that there is NO point at which one can say an individual life has begun. And she knows that's a lie but continues to assert it. Clearly, such people have an agenda to serve and their service to that untruth leads people like the Coenraadses astray.