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What if Hitler Had Invaded the United States in World War Two?
Ave Maria

Posted on 06/16/2003 6:15:57 PM PDT by AveMaria

This is a nightmare scenario targetted towards all of you World War Two history buffs.

About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC, honoring President Eisenhower in his army uniform. In a speech commemorating that occassion, Bob Dole asked the audience to consider what would have happened if Ike had failed in his crusade. Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA?

It certainly would not have been possible for Hitler to stage a successful naval invasion across the Atlantic to take the Eastern Seaboard, irrespective of whether or not America succeded in Europe. He simply did not have a Navy that was large enough for that task.

I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, assuming that they had succeeded in their mission to conquer the Soviet Union:

1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.

2. Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South (something similar to what their illegals are already doing). Given that many South Americans had pro-axis fascist feelings during the war, Brazil and Argentina could have send their own armies as well, to support the Mexicans. And, considering that Latin America continued to trade with Germany in the war years, Germany would have been able to move massive armaments and troops to South America, support an invasion from Mexico. As a reward, Mexico would have been rewarded with the return of California, New Mexico and Arizona. The rest of South America would have had a chance to be freed from American regional dominance that has existed since the Monroe Doctrine.

3. Hitler could have reached out to the anti-FDR right-wing, the likes of Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Rev. Charles Coughlin, and their many followers who were influential in the America First Movement. He could have used the resentment that Irish-Americans and German-Americans had for Anglo elites who wanted to save Britain, a nation that many in both groups disliked (I am Irish myself, and I am aware about how many Irishmen resented going to help Britain. The Republic of Ireland made a conscious decision to stay neutral in the war to the very end).

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

5. In the 1940s, Eugenics was highly favored by both liberal and conservative elites in New England. American race scientists like H. Goddard, Carl Bingham, Madison Grant, and Lothrop Stoddard were standard readings in the school system in Nazi Germany. A shared interest in race issues would have brought the Nazis and the New England Eugenicists together.

A combination of all those forces would have overwhelmed the FDR administration.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: eisenhower; germany; hitler; worldwar2
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What do the World War Two Buffs think of that nightmare scenario? Any possibility that the Germans could have expolited divisions in the US and the Americas, to defeat the US?
1 posted on 06/16/2003 6:15:57 PM PDT by AveMaria
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To: AveMaria
A more interesting question is: What would have happened if America has avoided WWI.
2 posted on 06/16/2003 6:18:40 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: AveMaria
1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.

Roll over what roads? Alaska is huge wilderness area larger than all the territory the Germans conquered on the eastern front during World War II.

3 posted on 06/16/2003 6:21:18 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: AveMaria
I'm a WW2 buff and I don't see any feasible way that Hitler could have defeated the United States. Even if he had conquered Great Britain and the Soviet Union. The U.S. war machine by then was in high gear and fighting the war in two separate oceans. Hitler was doomed.
4 posted on 06/16/2003 6:22:55 PM PDT by SamAdams76 (Back in boot camp! 260 (-40))
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To: AveMaria
You have to really spin a tale to make this work. For one thing, the Luftwaffe had no long range bomber (B-29 class).
5 posted on 06/16/2003 6:24:09 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: AveMaria
Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA

Kinda sounds like what the Dems are trying to do....

6 posted on 06/16/2003 6:24:27 PM PDT by So Cal Rocket (Free Miguel and Priscilla!)
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To: AveMaria
A couple ofthings.

First, Hitler could not have reached out to the right wing in the US, or the south. Once he had taken Europe, those who were admirerers lost their admiration. Only a very small minority was fond of him.

Also, an invasion from Siberia wouldn't have been much easier than from Greenland or other European areas. The harsh climate and extended supply lives would have been a nightmare.

While South America did not strongly oppose Germany, neither was it atrongly pro-Germany. The axis had a great deal of opposition because of the historic opposition to Europeans, who had been the colonial masters. There was also problems caused by active terrorist cells in Latin America sponsored by Japan. (A little discussed reason that the internment happened in the US)

Finally, to get Mexico involved, Germany would have had to supply the equipment. That isn't any easier than an actual invasion. In fact, it's harder, because Mexico would have been unable to protect the unloaded equipment from an American attack. And there would have been no way to keep such massive movements secret, even in 1940.

The axis plan was to weaken the US through isolation, and tht was a long term plan from the German perspective.
7 posted on 06/16/2003 6:27:26 PM PDT by sharktrager (There are 2 kids of people in this world: people with loaded guns and people who dig.)
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To: AveMaria
Stalin understood the challenge best.

When it comes to invading the U.S. the ultimate problem isn't getting past the U.S. military, it's dealing with the 80 million snipers once you're there.

Kinda says something about the importance of the 2nd Amendment, doesn't it?

8 posted on 06/16/2003 6:28:23 PM PDT by mitchbert (Facts are Stubborn Things)
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To: AveMaria
The whole idea's pretty unworkable. He would have had absurdly long supply lines. You only have to look at the troubles he had in Russia to know how bad that can be.
9 posted on 06/16/2003 6:29:02 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: AveMaria
I have an alternate-history novel on that approximate topic. It's called 1945, and it was written by William R. Forstchen and Newt Gingrich (really!). In it, the US stayed out of the European theater, Germany controls almost all of Europe except for Britain, and Hitler launches a raid on Oak Ridge. Good book, but I've been awaiting the promised sequel for several years.
10 posted on 06/16/2003 6:30:42 PM PDT by NovemberCharlie
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To: AveMaria
Throughout the Second World War - even when it proved to his immediate tactical disadvantage - Hitler maintained two research, development, and construction programs: (1) a deep sea navy including aircraft carriers; (2) a long-range bomber fleet, including jet rocketry advances. By all appearances, Hitler had every intention of mounting an invasion of the United States from the Eastern Seaboard, with presumably the Japanese hitting us from the other direction.

As explained by an eminent WWII historian acquaintance of mine (he's published one of the foremost texts) the evidence strongly suggest Hitler intended to base his transatlantic invasion forces in Norway (he was going to bridge the Jutland Straits, incidentally) and the Azores Islands. His long-range bombers would fly sorties across the Atlantic as his deep-sea aircraft carrier based Navy led the invasion force.

In short, had Hitler succeeded in conquering the Soviet Union and the British Empire, we were soon on the list - probably by 1950 at the latest. Whether it would've proven a successful invasion (and whether he would've secured Western Hemisphere allies, such as Brazil) is another matter altogether. BTW, the reason Hitler clung so tenaciously to the Baltic Sea ports (even as his land forces were overrun by the Russians) was so he could continue the deep-sea navy R&D program.

PS. If one considers the Manhattan Project into this equation, then almost certainly we would have had a Cold War period with the Nazi Empire, followed perhaps by nuclear war once Hitler completed the inevitable crash nuclear program. I cannot imagine Hitler would've surrendered even if we used our three atom bombs in 1945.
11 posted on 06/16/2003 6:30:46 PM PDT by AntiGuv ()
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To: AveMaria
The German Forces didn't do too well in the cold of the eastern front. And Mexico had already decided to do that using civilian rather than military invaders. The second Civil War thing could have worked for them.
12 posted on 06/16/2003 6:31:02 PM PDT by Consort
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To: AveMaria
Germany's best chance would've been to develop an A-Bomb and force us to surrender, probably after demonstrating it's power in a couple of our largest population centers.
13 posted on 06/16/2003 6:31:04 PM PDT by Brett66
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To: AveMaria
If he had won, Pat Buchanan might today be Chancel...err..President.
14 posted on 06/16/2003 6:32:28 PM PDT by Courier (The Saudis are our friends, they want us in Heaven as soon as possible.)
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To: AveMaria
If the Japs had played it a little smarter in the Pacific theater, could they have gained a foothold in (undefended) Alaska?
15 posted on 06/16/2003 6:33:51 PM PDT by Nexus
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To: mitchbert
When it comes to invading the U.S. the ultimate problem isn't getting past the U.S. military, it's dealing with the 80 million snipers once you're there.

I have nothing else to add. You just said it all!

16 posted on 06/16/2003 6:33:58 PM PDT by Hunble
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To: Brett66
Germany's best chance would've been to develop an A-Bomb and force us to surrender, probably after demonstrating it's power in a couple of our largest population centers.

Fortunately for us, most of the best German physicists were Jewish and worked on the Manhattan project.

17 posted on 06/16/2003 6:34:40 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: AveMaria
Hitler could not even get across the English channel much less the Behring Strait. Hitler did not 'have the horses.'
18 posted on 06/16/2003 6:34:40 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: AveMaria
Interesting.

Some here I've seen already suggested Hitler couldn't have invaded America directly.
This is true, BUT Hitler already had a rocket program with the V-2 and larger rockets in design stages, his scientists were working on the atom bomb using the heavy water from Norway for experimentation.
If the invasion of England had taken place and the British defeated, the Nazi's would have had a platform for launching directly on the NE cities of the US.
It would have been very devestating to this country if a number of V-5 rockets armed with 1 atomic device apiece were launched against us.

It would enflame the population, but to we would be limited in response due to the Atlantic distance.

19 posted on 06/16/2003 6:34:50 PM PDT by Pistolshot
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To: NovemberCharlie
Aha. Seems they never found a publisher for the sequel.
20 posted on 06/16/2003 6:35:05 PM PDT by NovemberCharlie
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To: Courier
If he had won, Pat Buchanan might today be Chancel...err..President.

And at least one tag line at FR would read "Heil Pat, heil!"

21 posted on 06/16/2003 6:35:11 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: AveMaria
Supply lines, supply lines!!!!! What was the German Army going to do? Live off the land. It would have never happened.
22 posted on 06/16/2003 6:35:24 PM PDT by Terp (Retired US Navy now living in Philippines were the Moutains meet the Sea in the Land of Smiles)
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To: SamAdams76
>>>The U.S. war machine by then was in high gear and fighting the war in two separate oceans. Hitler was doomed.<<<

If Hitler had been successful in conquering the Soviet Union, it would have been easier for him to take on America, without pressure from the Eastern Front.

Certainly, conquering America, the world's largest industrial war machine, would have been one hell of a challenge, even if Hitler had managed to somehow move hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks and aircraft to Mexico and Canada.

But I was wondering if he would have received support from fifth columnists in America, who may have viewed it as advantageous to work with him.
23 posted on 06/16/2003 6:37:11 PM PDT by AveMaria
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To: Pistolshot
...his scientists were working on the atom bomb using the heavy water from Norway for experimentation.

Not for long. They sought the heavy water, but by the time we got to Germany, it was discovered the program had long been abandoned.

24 posted on 06/16/2003 6:37:20 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: AveMaria
Oh and by the way in the 1940's one did not 'roll down' Alaska. The Alcan Highway was not built until the 1950's-the late 1950's if I remember correctly.
25 posted on 06/16/2003 6:38:08 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: AveMaria
What do the World War Two Buffs think of that nightmare scenario? Any possibility that the Germans could have expolited divisions in the US and the Americas, to defeat the US?

In short, no.

Whatever the outcome of Fall BARBAROSSA, the sinking of the Bismarck in May of 1941 removed Germany's last major surface combatant. Though Germany's U-Boats would do catastrophic damage up through mid-1943, Germany's lack of aircraft carriers, major surface combatants, and most of all, sealift and amphibious landing capability prevented any transantlantic ambitions from coming to pass. Indeed, the lack of sealift and landing capability, as much as the failure of the Luftwaffe to defeat the RAF in July and August of 1940, was as much responsible for the failure of Fall SEELOWE ("Sealion"), the projected invasion of Britain.

It is impossible to suppose that Germany, as it was even at the height of its powers in April of 1941, could have threatened America's domination of the Atlantic basin. It follows from that argument that no invasion of the United States could have gone much past a theoretical wargame at OKW Plans.

Not even the world's third strongest navy, Japan's Nihon Kaigun, could threaten the hold of the U.S. Navy on the oceans over a protracted period. As it was, Japan was only able to seize Attu and Kiska islands in the Aleutians.

Finally, a German invasion of Alaska presupposes a supply train that runs from Vladivostok all the way back to Western Russia on the Trans-Siberian Railway without attacks by Russian and Siberian partisans. Not freaking likely.

Continental powers such as France, Germany, and Russia appear incredibly strong but are never capable of winning global wars. Why? They don't control the seas. That's the key to everything. The Brits, the Americans, and the Aussies do.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

26 posted on 06/16/2003 6:39:15 PM PDT by section9 (Major Motoko Kusanagi has returned! Tanned, rested, and ready.....)
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To: Hunble
When it comes to invading the U.S. the ultimate problem isn't getting past the U.S. military, it's dealing with the 80 million snipers once you're there.

I paraphrased it based on memory, but believe it or not those were effectively Stalin's words when asked about the possibility of invading America. I wish I had a handy cite, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

27 posted on 06/16/2003 6:39:56 PM PDT by mitchbert (Facts are Stubborn Things)
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To: Petronski
Assuming for the moment that our alternate history includes a successful completion and demonstration of the Manhattan Project, then Hitler would no doubt have completed his own crash development program at least as swiftly as the Russians did. The greatest problem that the Nazi researchers faced was that they never decided whether it was even possible (and there's reason to believe Heisenberg purposely made it appear so).
28 posted on 06/16/2003 6:40:04 PM PDT by AntiGuv ()
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To: AveMaria
If I'm not mistaken, the Germans were pretty close to developing an atomic weapon. Given enough time Werner van Braun and his crew would have come up with a vehicle capable of delivery. The "Battle for America" would have been quite costly to America.
29 posted on 06/16/2003 6:40:15 PM PDT by Spruce
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To: AveMaria
The American people are NOT like the french. He would have had his hands full and I seriously doubt he would have made it even in the east coast during that time. Now today might be a little different considering how many people are now unarmed.
30 posted on 06/16/2003 6:40:49 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: mitchbert
>>>When it comes to invading the U.S. the ultimate problem isn't getting past the U.S. military, it's dealing with the 80 million snipers once you're there.<<<

You are right about that. I took that into account.

That is why I was wondering if he could have gotten some co-operation from part of the population, such as anti-New Deal midwesterners who revered Robert Taft, and the South.

He could have offered them self government, without Germans troops on their streets.
31 posted on 06/16/2003 6:40:57 PM PDT by AveMaria
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To: Petronski
Hitler could have built a Navy to attack US
and built long range bombers.
After conquering Eurasia and Africia
he could outbuilt the US in everything.

The Germans in 30s had plans and were in the process
of building a world class felt that would
have superior to BRN, but Hilter attacked
too soon the fleet would not been finished until
1944.

32 posted on 06/16/2003 6:41:13 PM PDT by Princeliberty
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To: AntiGuv
In short, had Hitler succeeded in conquering the Soviet Union and the British Empire, we were soon on the list - probably by 1950 at the latest.

We might have had to deal with Nazi Germany's missile technology had the "war" lasted until the 1950s.

33 posted on 06/16/2003 6:41:15 PM PDT by weegee (NO BLOOD FOR RATINGS: CNN let human beings be tortured and killed to keep their Baghdad bureau open)
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To: VadeRetro
You know, this makes me remember an article in one of the Sunday newspaper magazines from my childhood. This would have been in the mid-50's or so, because I read it myself, and the illustrations impressed me.

Apparently (going on my memory here so please bear with me) there was some sort of invasion plan cooked up by Hitler and the Japanese. They had a plan to divide the occupation of the US at the Rocky Mountains..everyething west of the Rockies would be administered by the Japanese, everything east would be run by the Germans.

Of course, in the mid-50's the memory of the war was still recent, so there were still articles focussing on how dangerous Hitler was, and perhaps this was a fantasy or an exagerration. However, as a child, let me tell you that the map they showed left a HUGE impression on me, if I could remember it all these years later.

34 posted on 06/16/2003 6:41:48 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Terp
With "Western Europe defeated", Hitler, Italy, and the Japs could have concentrated all firepower on the east (USSR). With the Big Bear down, Alaska really is just a stone's throw away from Siberia. Transports could have been accommodated by the Japanese fleet (if they weren't so busy island hopping).
35 posted on 06/16/2003 6:42:53 PM PDT by Nexus
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS; AveMaria
Hitler could not even get across the English channel much less the Behring Strait. Hitler did not 'have the horses.'

Also, where would the ships to mount an amphibous assault come from, Europe? If they came from European shipyards, there would be numerous opportunities to attack them before they could ever reach the Bearing strait. The Allies controlled both ends of the Mediterranean, so the ships would have to go around Africa at the Cape of Good Hope, the sail across the Indian Ocean till they reached the Pacific Ocean. Along most of the way they would be vulnerable to attacks from the planes of aircraft carriers and land based long range heavy bombers like the B-17 and B-29.

36 posted on 06/16/2003 6:44:20 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.)
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To: AveMaria
4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

Nope, sorry - wouldn't have happened. While we're from the South, we're not stupid. After what they did to Poland, Russian, France - and at this point it would likely be Britain as well - do you think that the South would trust anyone that made promises like that? Hell, the North sent their carpetbaggers, and they spoke English (even though they talk funny) - the German's wouldn't stand a chance.

Although, we might've invited them to land - just brings them closer so we can shoot them easier.

37 posted on 06/16/2003 6:45:09 PM PDT by Tennessee_Bob (Dieses sieht wie ein Job nach Nothosen aus!)
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To: AntiGuv
If Hitler conquers Eurasia and Africa
and has his jets in full production
delivering an atomic bomb onto anything
of great strategic importance would
have been no small feat.

And Hitler got rockers first.
So likely he gets ICBM's first and
wins the war by destroying
Washington DC and NYC.
38 posted on 06/16/2003 6:45:30 PM PDT by Princeliberty
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To: AntiGuv
Paperclip.
39 posted on 06/16/2003 6:45:37 PM PDT by soundbits
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To: Pistolshot
his scientists were working on the atom bomb using the heavy water from Norway for experimentation.

Fortunately the heavy water plant was destroyed in a raid( British I think). I remember a great movie ( don't remember the name though) concerning it.

40 posted on 06/16/2003 6:45:46 PM PDT by Vinnie
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To: AntiGuv
That's what I said above about 'spinning quite a tale.' Plus, Stalin had the help of communist sympathizers within Manhattan to give him the a big head start. There were no 'Nazi sympathizers' among the largely Jewish Manhattan Project braintrust.
41 posted on 06/16/2003 6:46:10 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Paleo Conservative
Yep. The Germans couldn't make it through a Russian winter. They would have never made it through the Northern Territory unless during summer.
42 posted on 06/16/2003 6:47:29 PM PDT by rintense (Thank you to all our brave soldiers, past and present, for your faithful service to our country.)
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To: Miss Marple
I just want North America. You can have Europe.
43 posted on 06/16/2003 6:47:32 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: AveMaria
Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South

--------------

Fox and Bush are doing that now with profound effect. If Hitler had tried it, it wouldn't have worlked because the population of Mexico was much smaller than it is presently. Any Mexican army would have been wiped out on the desert by American aircraft.

44 posted on 06/16/2003 6:47:43 PM PDT by RLK
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To: AveMaria
I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, ...

If they'd developed the nuclear bomb first combining with the their V-2 rockets.... Can you say Heil Hitler!

45 posted on 06/16/2003 6:47:44 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
The ALCAN Highway was built during World War II. (1942-1943), 1500+ miles of gravel road.
46 posted on 06/16/2003 6:48:45 PM PDT by Rebelbase (........The bartender yells, "hey get out of here, we don't serve breakfast!")
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To: AveMaria
If we presume that Hitler managed to defeat Russia and Great Britain, we also have to imagine that he found enough troops to pacify them. So it would take time for the Nazis to come up with the resources to launch a new attack on an intact United States.

And once England fell, the US and Canada would be very much aware of "who's next", and would be prepared for an invasion. As was already pointed out, Alaska was a barrier, not a beachhead.

Only the most lunatic southern partisan would have turned to Hitler for assistance in re-establishing the Conferacy. Fifth Column propaganda, espionage, and sabotage activities would be harassing but probably not fatal.

An invasion force from Europe would have to face our long range land based bombers and our naval forces without air cover, a serious hardship. Once ashore, the surviving invaders would face, as was pointed out, an armed civillian populace, unlike anything Europe ever had to offer an invader.

Hitler did have medium range ballistic missiles, which the Allies did not, and in the pause to digest the Soviet Union, it is conceivable that Hitler could have developed nuclear weapons (Heisenberg was woefully far behind when the war ended) and used them. However, our primary delivery system until the 1960's was long range strategic bombers, so missiles weren't absolutely necessary for us, nor for Hitler.

One must remember that the nature of Nazism was to exterminate the thinking mind. Such a regime cannot easily foster sustained technological advancement. Both the Soviets and the Chinese worked hard to steal what we learned on our own.

But I don't think it would have ever happened. Even if Hitler had managed to defeat the Soviet Union in the short term, he didn't have the resources (manpower) to pacify and hold it. The Third Reich could not have been held together for long.

47 posted on 06/16/2003 6:48:57 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: Spruce
If I'm not mistaken, the Germans were pretty close to developing an atomic weapon.

Barely started, and pretty much shut down for lack of resources before the end of the war in Europe.

48 posted on 06/16/2003 6:49:14 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Gee, thanks. How long do you think it would take me to get the French to surrender?
49 posted on 06/16/2003 6:49:21 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Hunble
My Grandpa would have been one of them! God bless his soul. He was too young for WWI and too old for WWII. Man, did he want to kill some Germans too! Pretty ironic since his parents were both naturalized German-Americans. Heh.
50 posted on 06/16/2003 6:49:31 PM PDT by rintense (Thank you to all our brave soldiers, past and present, for your faithful service to our country.)
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