China-Cuba/US-Taiwan tit-for-tat

yahoo.comnews/ Asia Times ^ | June 22, 2001 | Dalia Acosta, Inter Press Service

[Cincinatus' Wife]

July 7, 2003
Cuban President Fidel Castro (R) shakes hands with Li Changchun, member of the Chinese Politburo Standing Committee, prior to a meeting at the Cuban State Council in Havana, July 7, 2003. Cuba and China are holding meetings to strengthen political and commercial ties. REUTERS/Rafael Perez

______________________________________________________________

June 22, 2001 HAVANA - Military relations between Cuba and China that allegedly extend to arms sales to this Caribbean island nation as well as joint intelligence activity has heightened tension between the two socialist nations and the United States.

Reports refuted by Beijing and Havana have appeared in the US media since Chinese President Jiang Zemin's visit to Cuba in April. "For over 30 years, Cuba has not imported any weapon from China," Cuban President Fidel Castro said on Tuesday night on a special program broadcast by Cuba's state-monopolized TV. Sun Yuxi, spokesman for China's ministry of Foreign Relations, had already stated that reports claiming his country was selling arms to Cuba were totally unfounded.

Citing a US intelligence report, the Washington Times reported on June 12 that at least three boats carrying explosives and other weapons had been traced from China to the Cuban port of Mariel in the past few months. According to the newspaper, China was taking advantage of Cuba's proximity to the United States to carry out electronic espionage to intercept US communications.

The government of President George W Bush is "very much concerned with this PLA [People's Liberation Army] cooperation [with Cuba] and movement of military equipment into Cuba", James Kelly, Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, said at a subcommittee hearing in the US House of Representatives.

However, US State Department spokesman Phil Reeker denied on June 12 that the government had reports confirming the allegations set forth by the Washington Times. Senate Republican leader Trent Lott said that if the allegations were confirmed, it would not be a good sign for China.

China, the United States' fourth biggest trading partner, with a bilateral trade flow that stands above US$110 billion, could be subjected to economic sanctions for selling weapons to Cuba, which Washington includes on its list of countries that engage in state-sponsored terrorism.

Chinese military assistance to Cuba is limited to logistical support like radars and anti-aircraft equipment, according to intelligence sources cited by the daily El Nuevo Herald, which is published in Spanish in Miami, a stronghold of the anti-Castro Cuban exile community.

Jason Feer, the publisher of CubaNews, a US-based on-line newsletter on Cuba, wrote in the June issue that it "seems unlikely that China would risk a major confrontation with the United States by supplying advanced weaponry that the United States would view as threatening". He added that China saw Cuba more as a "convenient bargaining chip in its ongoing rivalry with the United States". Furthermore, said Feer, China sees its relationship with Cuba as analogous to the United States' ties to Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.

In April, the Bush administration approved the sale to Taiwan of eight diesel submarines, 12 P-3C Orion anti-submarine aircraft, four Kidd destroyers and other weapons, along with the corresponding technical training. Meanwhile, three US missiles were tested Wednesday in Taiwan.

Beijing criticized Bush's decision to sell advanced weaponry to Taiwan as "meddling" in China's internal affairs, and said it reserved the right to take measures.

The row over US arms sales to Taiwan compounded the tension triggered by the April 1 emergency landing of a US spy plane in China, after it collided with a Chinese military plane.

The geopolitical differences between Beijing and Washington also arise from China's intention to counter, and if possible eliminate, the United States' predominant military presence in southeast Asia, especially in the South China Sea.

US analysts say military aid to Havana is a response to Washington by Beijing, which is also taking advantage of this island's geographic location for carrying out surveillance activities.

But Castro maintained on Tuesday that high-level officials from China and Cuba who met in December in Havana did not reach any agreement on weapons sales. The president also said a report was available which showed that the three Chinese ships that docked in Cuba were carrying food like rice and beans - "weapons to kill the appetite", he joked - building materials, and medical equipment.

He confirmed that the first shipment, which arrived May 10, 2000, was indeed destined for the armed forces, but consisted of donations of olive green drill, cotton and polyester cloth, white nylon material for mosquito screens, boots, buttons, thread and needles.

According to Castro, since the 1990 collapse of the east European socialist bloc which triggered Cuba's decade-long severe economic troubles, this country has not invested "a single cent" in weapons purchases. The years of military aid from the former Soviet Union had guaranteed an endless supply of firearms and "industrial-scale quantities of ammunition" to make sure any "invader" would have to pay "an unpayable price if they were unfortunately that stupid", said Castro.

Havana also maintains the capacity to set up a network of anti- tank and anti-personnel mines in case of a US military attack, the president added.

(Inter Press Service)

[PhilDragoo]

Well, anyone up to deposing Castro?

Por seguro.

¿Puede usted ahora oírme?

Sí, puedo oírle.

SPLAT!

[Brian Allen]

<< A poor backwards country with the world's largest .... >>

.... population of medieval slaves and a per capita income of less than $500.00 per annum.

Get real.

[GOP_1900AD]

I am real. These are facts. Do you dispute them? Come on, right now punk..

[GOP_1900AD]

Ping.

[The Pheonix]

I agree with your assessment of China's advancements in ICBMs, laser tech etc

They are producing 500,000 Hi-tech engineers and technicians every year.

and this Brian Allen calls them "medivael slaves"? Japanese engineers who cannot find employment in Japan, are willing to work in China at Chinese wages. Now, why would Japanese want to be "medivael slaves", we wonder?????????

[Brian Allen]

<< These are "facts." >>

Bullshit. They are the exceptions that prove the rule. >>

<< Do you dispute them? >>

Yes.

Me and reality.

Dream on.

[Brian Allen]

Is the pheonix by any chance related to the phoenix?

Or is he a chi-comm lickspittle/shill too.

[The Pheonix]

whatever

at least I am trying to be more objective, and trying to contribute towards the forum's discussion by bringing in real facts and data thru links,etc

At least I am NOT a hate-filled pcycho, just ranting away standard 1950s propaganda type slogans

Plse do something about those pathological hatred before the stomach explode or something

[The Pheonix]

Paul Wolfowitz,"China almost certain to be a Superpower"

It is not just you and me and millions of other guys who says that China is developing very fast in the military, the Sciences, the industrial etc .

None other than the US Deputy Secy of Defense ,Paul Wolfowitz, had said in a 2002, Wash Times inetrview, that, "China will almost certain to become a SUPERPOWER, within the next quarter, to half Century, and that's fast, by Historical standards". And the Wash Times, said, "and the Secy of Defense, Don. Rumsfeld agreed with this assessment". These assessments were based on studies done by the US Dept of Defense, Pentagon, US War College, CIA, NSC, Dept of Commerce etc

Now, of cource, Brian Allen will call them all "Chicom's spittle-lickers" or something like that

[GOP_1900AD]

Of course, it is possible that Mr. Allen is, himself, an ErBu man, sent here as an agent provacateur. On the other hand, he could simply be a poorly travelled guy who wouldn't know Bao An from Beijing. Look, I'm no friend of Red China, but, as Sun Tzu wrote, know your enemy.

Now here is an interesting article from a guy I know named Walt Custer and a few of his friends. Note, this was from 3 years ago, so figure accordingly:

Click here.

I view this as symbolic of what is happening overall in the Red Evil Empire - they are building the 21st century Ruhr there while we turn ourselves into a Wal Mart based economy feeding the maw of a mega NEP (Lenin would have been proud...). And like the 1930s Ruhr, while they bring in cash to enrich their key Citizens (forget about all the poor rural folks, they are nothing but cannon fodder, conscriptees and cheap labor for all the new plants) they also use the cash and the new R&D and industrial capability to build a war machine. Since the signing of the 7/16/2001 Axis Treaty with Moscow, it has formally become a joint venture (covertly, it had already been going on for some time.). The means of making war are being put in place. Now here is another interesting perspective:

Click here.

To cap things off, here are more facts of the Viasystems plant: Viasystems Kalex Printed Circuit Board Ltd. Guangzhou City, Guangdong Province, PRC 1.9 million square feet of current mfg space 750K sqaure feet of future expansion 6000 "employees" (how many PLA?), Capacity - 1.4 M square feet per month, Maximum fab: 32" x 48"x0.5" (8 plus layers; this thickness could accomodate many more than 8, e.g. 20 plus).

Similar new factories for every other type of commodity and military supply item are springing up left and right; much of it financed by Western dupes.

[GOP_1900AD]

The most dangerous thing is you appear to be no friend of the ChiCOMs and yet you grossly underestimate their capabilites and seem unaware of what they are up to. See my related post above. As for my comment about road mobile missiles, I will give you an answer; we've got none. Whereas, the PLAAF have an increasing number of TELs with cold launched DF21s (most recently, able to load MIRVs). By the way the DF21 also has a SLBM version. Increasingly, on the other hand, the US no longer has a triad and relies solely on Sub'd and siloed ICBMs for strategic missiles. We no longer maintain effective air launching, most of our cruise missiles have been converted to conventional and we no longer keep intercontinental bombers on standby. Between the PRC, the restive Russians and the arming Pakistanis, Iranians and others we face new arms race that we have not even recognized let alone started running in. Instead, we continue to disarm and naively believe we'll only face small regional contingencies, rogue states and terrorists. What we fail to realize is all of these are mere diversions.

[Paul Ross]

China sees its relationship with Cuba as analogous to the United States' ties to Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.

That analogy is so full of holes, it is beyond ridiculous. Oh, so to avoid 'interfering in our internal affairs' they are they going to give us a 'pass' on invading Cuba to restore it to the great motherland...if we just stand-aside as they blockade/bomb/invade Taiwan??? A quid pro quo? Seems rather implausible.

[Enemy Of The State]

Actually most people earn about 300 to 400 RMB per month in the smaller provincial cities.

[The Pheonix]

you are absolutely correct to say that the logic put forward by the above news article is absurd

BTW, the NYT, in a few months ago, had said that , the Chinese Govt, is becoming more moderate on the US position on Taiwan, and is "prepared to accept the fact that the US do have a legitimate interest in Taiwan, and is willing to take into consideration, US sensitivity on Taiwan"

[Brian Allen]

<< yet you ... seem unaware of what they are up to. >>


Thank you for even further illustration of the depth of your insight.

I live in Asia and have for most of the past 40 years and am at this moment sitting within a 30 minute flight of "china." I speak mandarin, Hokkien and Cantonese and have trained pla "pilots" [In "china" they're the ones in the pilot costumes at the pointy end of the aeroplane] in all aspects of advanced aviation -- and half of my family is of Chinese ethnicity.

I know what they're "up to."

And I know both "china's" capabilities and its limitations.

And as of today and into the forseeable future -- notwithstanding its evil and that [Outside of the State Department and hitlery cli'ton's office] we have no more determined enemy on Planet Earth -- "china's" limitations trump its "capabilities."

And we are on to it and are on the job.

[piasa]

From what I hear from some of them, that's what they are promised, but not neccessarily what they take home. There is so much corruption over there the main game in town seems to be "get them to work, then forget to pay them at the end of the month. String them along as long as possible without paying up. When they quit, hire someone else." (No weekly paycheck by the way. This wonderful system means that the population is in constant motion looking for an employer with a shred of integrity and a landlord that won't rob them blind.)

[stuck_in_new_orleans]

However, US State Department spokesman Phil Reeker denied on June 12 that the government had reports confirming the allegations set forth by the Washington Times. Senate Republican leader Trent Lott said that if the allegations were confirmed, it would not be a good sign for China.

What? How old is this?

[Brian Allen]

<< .... people [Lucky enough to have jobs] earn about 300 to 400 RMB per month in the smaller provincial cities. >>

And what about the rural poor -- including those in the more than two and a half million square miles of other People's Sovereign states, territories, Nations and lands criminally occupied by Peking's psychopaths?

[Enemy Of The State]

Well, of all the dirty rotten stuff that goes on there, that is not something that is very common. Actually one of the biggest scams that people fall for in China are pyramids and false investments.

It is very uncommon for an employer not to pay the employees as promised but one of the things that I have found to be the strangest is that when a person graduates from college, (and this is becoming less and less common) the government finds them a job and if they refuse the job, they are required to reimpburse the the government for the cost of their college tuition. Then later if they find a job and decided that they do not like it, they must pay a penalty fee to their employer in order to leave. Usually a sum of 5,000 yuan or more. Then they must pay another fee to the company which has agreed to hire them. This is more common in the more remote provinces though.

Strange system, very strange.

[Enemy Of The State]

"And what about the rural poor -- including those in the more than two and a half million square miles of other People's Sovereign states, territories"

Depending on their job, that is the wages for the rual poor. Most people in the larger cities are starting to make wages comparable to those in the US believe it or not. There is lots of money to be made in China and the people usually have no shortage of ideas about how to do it.

That is not to say that there are not poor "peasants" who make less than 300-400 yuan per month, but it is becoming less common.