Hong Kong’s Democracy At A Cross Road

Self | July 15, 2003 | FreepForever

[FreepForever]

The July 13, Sunday rally for democracy development held in Chater Road, Central, Hong Kong, punctuates, if not decelerates, the People’s Power movement that unsettles the bureaucracy of the Hong Kong government to its core.

While it is time for both the pro-democracy camp activists and the citizen to take a breather and consolidate strength for future movement, they are split and divided. With the center of the storm, the controversial Article 23 which triggers unprecedented uproar, now shelved, the general public’s focus moves to: To keep or oust Tung?

The difference of opinion stems from whether the movement should continue with it’s prime target of removing Tung CheeHwa, the flagellated and most disliked Chief Executive of Hong Kong. After the historic July 1 half-million protest march, Mr. Tung’s approval rate dropped to a new low: 34% (source: HKU public opinion poll). Only two of his 3 secretaries and 11 ministers barely registered above 50%. This is the worst confidence crisis that the administration has ever faced since 1997.

The “Save Tung (for better use)” faction argues that removing Tung at this stage would be detrimental to the democratic reform process. If Tung resigns today, his post will be temporarily succeeded by the Chief Secretary, Donald Tsang as Acting Chief Executive for a maximum period of six months. And the 800-members election Committee will be reassembled for a reelection because the mechanism for popular election of chief executive is not yet in place. Whoever the new Chief Executive is, his first 5-year term will finish in 2009. That means the first popularly elected Chief Executive would only be materialized in Hong Kong in 2009 the earliest, even with Beijing’s green light all the way. Therefore, removing Tung now is actually a delay to the goal of popularly elected chief executive. If Hong Kong keeps Tung in office, there may still be some hope that Hong Kong can get a popularly elected chief executive as early as 2007 when Tung finishes his second term.

The more bellicose “Oust Tung” faction argues that whoever think Hong Kong will get it’s first popular chief executive election in 2007 are either very naive or day dreaming. Asking Tung’s present administration to build a democratic election system is like an old Chinese saying: “asking a tiger for its fur”, all his ministers will fight tooth and nail to resist it. There is no reason to let Tung stay in office for an extra day. This is considered a cost too high for a democratic dream that will never come true. If Hong Kong wants a new beginning, it would be after Tung’s resignation, not before.

Up to now, both factions’ argument have valid points and both factions have its diehard supporters. It will take some time for the two factions to debate and reach a consensus. However, no matter what consensus is reached, the biggest deciding factor still lies in Beijing. Will the Central Government loosen its grip and allow Hong Kong to have such progressive democratic reform? Beijing’s authority fears that if Hong Kong citizen’s demand for more democracy is unopposed, mainland’s billion strong population will follow suit. For a non-democratic state like Communist China, any pursuit for more democracy traditionally means “counter-revolution” (see note) and must be dealt with by brutal force.

Note: Ironically, the administration of Communist China think that they have monopolized the word “revolution”. Therefore, any force in opposition to the present regime, is officially labeled as “counter-revolution”.

[The Pheonix]

the whole thing might have gone beyond ART.23 itself. Seems like the people are asking for nothing less than a fully-elected HK Legislature, ie Full-Democrasy

[FreepForever]

HaHa! You've noticed too. This is exactly how a stupid man reacts when he is too stupid to make a response. That means: he can hear but cannot listen.

You know what, he kept saying that for 4 straight days without addressing to the people's pleas directly. Up to now, he has not addressed any of the issues except shelving the Article 23. He is avoiding the press too since July 9.

[The Pheonix]

yes, absolutely, Mr.Tung has failed miserably in his job

He doesn't even know or care what the aspirations of the HK people are

How sad

[Quix]

I asked a local Chinese from Shanghai if he thought China would invade the USA. He instantly said yes. But he thinks it will be many years off, yet. I think his timing is off.

Certainly prayer and God as well as our own responsible freedom supporting actions are at a minimum, crucial.

I do know that many in The Party would also welcome a much more democratic etc. China. I doubt the route there will be quick or easy.

THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS.

[FreepForever]

Re your #41. Hey, it seems you're following the HK news quite closely. Yes, we demand popular elected (1 man 1 vote) Chief Executive by 2007. And, direct election for all 60 seats in the Legislature. You're correct, that's full democracy. Well, that's our opening position. The government can only say: we heard it and will consider it. They cannot reject it right away to provoke more public anger. Anyway, the ball is in the park now.

[FreepForever]

More about your #41. In answer to our demand for full democracy, the government will certainly drag on indefinitely. That's their only available move. To corner them, our position is: if you keep dragging political reform, we will keep dragging Article 23. That's our bargaining chip.

[The Pheonix]

All our prayers and wishes that you and all the people of Hong Kong will succeed and get your wishes fulfilled.

By the Grace of God, you will succeed

[FreepForever]

Hi, Quix. Tell me, are you more comfortable with the new administration under Hu and Wen than with Jiang Zemin's? I mean in Sino-US relationship.

[Quix]

Sure. I'm more comfortable with Hu.

It's an incremental improvement.

However, There are plenty of power mongers and aged dyed-in-the-wool Communists who are looking over his shoulder and lurking in the wings.

And, as with Shrillery Hellery--there are plenty who naturally love tyranny and want it increased with them on top.

THANKFULLY, MOST OF THE POPULACE AND EVEN A FAIR NUMBER IN THE PARTY are *sick* of tyranny and aching deeply for more democracy, freedom, integrity in government, the rule of law etc.

But when I spoke to a lot of Party leaders, I was impressed by the sincerity on the part of virtually all of them in the room who REALLY WANT AN END to the sorts of craziness that multiplies corruption instead of removing it; that multiplies tyranny and abuse instead of removing it; that prevents personal freedoms instead of encouraging and supporting them.

They want a China truly for the masses that they can all be proud of with their heads held high for reasons of integrity, honorable governance etc.

They are not sure exactly what forms such should take for China and very unsure how to get there.

Hu is an improvement. Jiang is still too powerful, however. I pray he steps in his own pits and doodoo so horribly that his power is rapidly diminished.

[FreepForever]

From time to time, I lurk in mainland Chinese forums and found, sadly, that a majority of China’s general public still relates conquering and/or defeating the US as an ultimate justification of China’s national strength. They believe China can and should become the king of the world. I blame this on the ChiCom’s so called “nationalism” education. They were misguided into believing that aggression means patriotism. If you don’t hate America, you are not a patriot. See how Communism can deteriorate mankind and change a generation’s thinking. They are turning human into monsters. I think no one except Christianity can save them.

[Quix]

I should lurk there.

I am only several hundred pages into Spence's excellent 800+pp book on China.

I'm convinced from all I've observed, experienced and read that there's tons in the cultural gestalt; the Chinese mentality, culture, ethic etc. which is fed up with being a backwards, demeaned culture and joke.

They long for a return to the time when they were the paragon epitome of excellence in arts, culture, government etc.

It matters little how fractured, transitory and partial such facts were.

Most every individual on the street looks longingly forward to what they presume will be not only the Chinese century but the Chinese millenium with China on top of the world.

They consider it not only their RIGHT to conquer and flood Australia with people--they consider it their duty.

A lot of this mentality has been brooding underneath the surface and sometimes erupting to the top for centuries in China.

Mao's evil excesses and destruction of more than 30 million Chinese souls has only heightened their yearning to be the King of the global hill.

Their pride/arrogance, greed, selfishness, hyper sensitivity to face issues etc. are tenaciously held values and the driving forces in tons of individual, corporate, family and government decisions. World conquest is but an fulffillment, natural outgrowth of what they do with each other routinely on a daily basis.

They are not satisfied until they are tops and widely acclaimed as tops. The grasping, grubbing, etc. is incredible even and often especially within the extended families.

Court histories of China show the same thing.

We know what the human heart is made of. They just display it vividly well.

Truly only He who is able and willing to change our hearts when we ask and cooperate--only He can and will change China.

But He will likely use her to help discipline the USA first.

[FreepForever]

Yes, I know China’s under-dog syndrome but how can they blame all their sufferings on the Western world (especially the US) when all the sufferings since 1949 are responsible by the Communist? Don’t they know who their enemies are? Those who can post and chat on the net are not uneducated people, they are China’s elite. How can they be so stupid and manipulated by the government’s propaganda like that? These are the times that I am ashamed to be a Chinese. Yes, what you said is alarming true -- to remain a beacon and leader, the US should get their acts together first.

[FreepForever]

I have sent to your Freepmail box one of my older essay, From Jazz to CCP. As it is out of topic, I don't want to post it here. Good night!

[Quix]

BLESS U TONS FF!

Yes, I know China’s under-dog syndrome but how can they blame all their sufferings on the Western world (especially the US) when all the sufferings since 1949 are responsible by the Communist?

I don't know that any of us can handle more than a certain amount of guilt earned or unearned. We all humanly look for scapegoats.

The Communists are not about to take wholescale responsibility for 68 million deaths (BTW, what's the ref or even a general/nonspecific level source for that figure?). To do so, they realize, they'd have to surrender power. And they are NOT ABOUT TO DO THAT!

We have seen how the evil duo Dillbo and Shrillery Hellery have refused to give up any more power than absolutely forced to. Certainly the bulk of the senior Party leaders are AT LEAST as bad. There are some encouraging stories of others which should remain private.

I've told this multiple times so hope I'm not boring you with a repeat.

13+ years ago, a student agreed to teach me the half game of Chinese Chess. As we play in the cafeteria, another student will come up. I think--OH, GOOD--I'm the beginner, they have played all their lives--the new comer will help me.

WRONG!

So, a 3rd student comes up who's played all his life. I think--wonderful--2 against 2.

WRONG!

It would often be 4-6 Chinese college students who've played all their lives against the new comer. [I suppose one good result is that now only about 3-5% of college students can routinely beat me. Though most are unfamiliar with the Peng Hu rules I prefer. Kaoshiung residents--maybe 30% know them].

The solidarity is awesome. One would almost think it's genetic. CHINESE AGAINST THE BARBARIANS FOREVER! seems to be the genetic coding.

There is a HUGE CULTURAL "IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP" (in Freud's terms) mentality.

The ARROGANCE/PRIDE issue is mixed thoroughly into that. I was often amused to shocked in Mainland China when two very rusty and very scratched bikes would happen to touch one another in the crush of bicycle gridlock/traffic jam. The two riders would be at each other's throats with poles--if available. One would have to look with a big magnifying glass to find the NEW scratch amidst all the others but one's pride/face had been affronted and would be seemingly defended to the death.

I'll go ahead and respond to your FREEMAIL here as I think it does belong, in part.

You talk about the Party etc. and the evils fostered, engendered, foisted on the people, culture, world, country. And you understandably blame many evil leaders for very evil decisions and deeds.

There's truth enough to that.

But there's an insidious deception, to me, in your assumptions that seem to go along with that.

A wonderful psychologist/author by the name of Zimbardo did some ground breaking prisoner/guard experiments years ago.

Over a holiday period of 2 weeks, he randomly assigned volunteer students to be either guards or prisoners. I forget, he may have planned the experiment to go longer than 2 weeks.

Anyway--the students really got into it whether they were guards or students--they quickly took on the mentality of their role. And even when the roles were switched, the former prisoners now guards were at least as ruthless, abusive, awful as the former guards had been.

He had to stop the experiment prematurily in the interest of saving life.

He put it very eloquently in the preface to one of his excellent intro psych texts. I don't know if I can do it justice in paraphrase. He's graciouisly given me permission to repeatedly quote him and I may have it exactly somewhere but no time to find it.

Paraphrase: It's not so terrible if the monsters are over there, out there. There are not too many of them and we can gang up on them or at least collectively protect ourselves. But when the monster is in our mirror, within us--ahhhhh--the terror is maximized and most difficult to eradicate.

As Christians, we know only one God-man achieved victory over death, hell and the grave. Jesus The Christ IS Lord of Lord's and King of Kings.

And His Return to manifest His Kingship is ever closer and gives every evidence of occurring in our lifetime. None too soon.

The evil is in the heart of man. Only The Blood of Jesus can deal with it. And He awaits our permission and cooperation in that process though we are legally perfect on acceptance of His Blood as covering for our sins. . . . confess with your mouth, believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord . . . and you'll be saved Scripture teaches.

But the process of rooting the evil out of the fabric of our being seems to be a life-long process regardless of our legally-perfect-in-Him state upon Salvation/Baptism.

Some of us are further along in that process than others.

A key, to me, is humility.

Some wonderfully humble authentic Christians in Mainland China would have risked their lives for me after Tienanmen. We shared many tears together. True saints one and all.

But it's not natural for mankind to be humble. And it seems VERY ANTITHETICAL to the Chinese psyche, culture, bent.

I don't know if Americans or Chinese as a whole are more arrogant. But certainly the Chinese culture seems to have it more engrained in every cell and fiber to the subatomic level as a national priority akin to national defense or caligraphy in national obsession, pride.

Extended families love to put on the front at Chinese New Year or Mid-Autumn Festival or Tomb Sweeping Day--that all is well and the whole family lives in wonderful Confucian harmony.

But you and I know it's at least as rare as such harmony around an American Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner.

The arrogant competition, infighting, rivalry is rife through the whole family and most every family and certainly the culture. Give such people autocratic Communistic tyrannical power--and the problem only multiplies in intensity and scope. Everyone wants to be top dog and damn the details and the cost whether in yuan, gold or lives.

The charades, manipulations, manoeuvers, strategies, games, dances etc. to achieve top dog status are relentless--whether in a marriage, a family, a neighborhood, city, Provence or nationally. And now a billion people are fed the doctrine that they deserve, it is their right, even their duty to be top dog of the world. They have longed for such a status. They will give it a lot of blood sweat and tears to get there. It's virtually genetic. Spiritually, it is genetic--from the pit.

Only The Blood will solve that. The Blood and The Love of Jesus acted out earnestly by those who call Him Lord is the only hope for any of us and certainly for China and the world.

Jesus teaches us to prefer one another over ourselves but in healthy ways. Jesus teaches us to lay our lives down for one another. Jesus teaches us that truth IN LOVE are paragon priorities.

AND, by His Spirit, He enables us increasingly--WITH OUR PERSISTENT COOPERATION--to demonstrate such.

Mercifully, the authentic believers of China will have the most powerful and most lasting impact on China and the world. Already their prayers are having great impacts on the USA and the world. I shudder to think what might have already transpired otherwise.

There are prophecies of further such great impacts when China invades the Western USA. We shall see.

Also, it is wise to keep in mind that satan is not God's opposite equal force. He's merely a useful gnat or less from God's perspective. God may use China to discipline the USA for forsaking so wholesale so many of God's priorities as well as a relationship with Him. And, certainly, if China attempts to invade Israel as some believe Scriptures predict--then China will suffer more than ever--very sadly.

But as I told the party leaders so eager to support THE RULE OF LAW--Scripture tells us that the letter of the law kills--only The Spirit brings Life.

We do well to keep such in mind. Law on it's own is merely polished tyranny. Law without The Spirit and balance and heart is also deadly.

YES! The Rule of Law is better than the rule of might makes right or the most clever and manipulative make right or mob rule makes right or the religion of science makes right or the inauthentic religion of Christianity [vs the Spiritual relationship with Chrsit following HIS Wisdom and Way] makes right.

But The Rule of Law in and of itself apart from Holy Spirit will not solve the problem of evil in the heart of every individual. As we saw with Dillbo and Shrillery Hellery Antoinette de Fosterizer de Marx de Sade--clever people manipulate laws to deadly effect almost as easyily as breathing.

As one of our founding fathers noted--our form of government would not work apart from the Biblical substrate of people earnestly seeking to follow it's precepts. As that substrate has been so fractured and eroded by the Communist's planned and well executed assaults the last 50 years, we are beginning to see the wisdom of that assertion.

I gather you are in HK.

Certainly a dramatic place to be alive in these days. I love HK and miss my visits there much.

Someone I'm easily learning to love wrote this wonderful piece of wisdom:

You never know what living under a tyrany is like until you do. As usual, it is always too late to fight a tyrany when you finally do. Tyrants do not rely on a lot of supporters, they just need the silent majority that never make their voice heard.

Yes, not everyone is a freedom fighter. And there's always someone willing to fight for you But, at least, make yourself someone worth fighting for. How much freedom that a man deserves is judged by his willingness to fight for it.

VERY WELL SAID. THANKS.

But Communist China is not the hub of all evil. We could say that satan is. But it's human hearts wherein that hub reaches out to try and throw sand in God's eyes through. Satan is a destroyer, lier, killer, thief. He seeks only to rob, kill and destroy.

Whenever anyone fails to live and walk and relate in God's Love, truth, peace, hope--abundant Resurrection life--then satan achieves his goal of assailing God's favorite creation. He's still vengeful over being kicked out of Heaven and knows his evil days are numbered before he's locked up for good.

In that state, he's determined to cause the maximum grief for the maximum souls that he can. Those complicit in such evil will bear their own recompense.

The rest of us may be in for vary-ing levels of expensive tuition in the school of hard knocks.

Personally, I pray China has less than she seems scheduled for. She's had enough already. But, as Scripture says, pride goes before a fall.

And as a culture, humility is not the first word commonly associated with China. . . . nor sadly with the USA.

Thanks for your work in behalf of freedom.

Blessings,

[batter]

Thanks!

[PhilDragoo]

We are not worry about a crackdown. All demonstration are non violent and peaceful.

May your demonstrations be productive of democracy, not the butchery of Xiong Guangkai chum of traitorrapist42 and Hitlery.

It always seems the CCP will proceed inexorably a la the Borg to assimilate Hong Kong, that it intends never to relent.

Does the truth get out in any other fashion than by the testimony of such eyewitnesses as yourself?

CNN is in league with the Devil. Does Fox cover Hong Kong?

I would hope, but they seem enamored of Laci Peterson and basketball players.

Never Again Tiananmen--June 4, 1989:

Here's to a tank trap in front of Hitlery, copresident who rode into power intoning, "It is time to stop coddling the butchers of Beijing."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!

[HighRoadToChina]

Alamo-Girl, you are always welcome! BUMP!

[FreepForever]

Thanks, Quix for the inspiration and educational piece. I’m trying my best to summarize.

What we are witnessing in China, in fact, is a vicious cycle in extreme slow-motion. 54 years is not a short time. However, the effect is devastating nonetheless.

We have a traditional Chinese saying: “Such people, such government.”

The people, in the beginning, were enslaved by the government. Through time, the enslaved public begins to acknowledge the monster which reflects their true inner self -- the Satan that lurks within every one of their hearts. Only through this monstrous government can they materialize such brutalness, forcefulness, ruthlessness, coldbloodedness, limitless authority and incontestable power that everyone so hungered for in centuries. Without knowing it, the people are intoxicated and becomes additive to such mental narcotic. This mentality is alarming obvious during the Cultural Revolution when everyone thinks that the safest place in the world is behind the tyrant’s gun. So they help the tyrant to crush their own people, even their own family -- a government and people co-produced holocaust. Eventually, the people themselves have become the monsters they had so feared and detested. To share this great honor, everyone wants to be a part of the instrument that builds a monstrous government that terrorize the whole planet -- they call this “nationalism”, “national pride” and “patriotism”. The lopsided anti-Western propaganda that I have encountered on various Chinese forums is actually another Cultural Revolution in the making. The people’s mentalities are being manipulated into their pre-Cultural-Revolution state. Most horribly, these include a sizable amount of Chinese who have migrated to the free world. I am ashamed to say that I have relatives like these too, who think that the Tiananmen massacre is the government only viable solution to save China which resulted in her success today. That makes me want to spit on their ugly faces in every family reunion.

Then, the vicious cycle is complete. Monstrous people creating monstrous government that creates more monstrous people that creates a bigger monstrous government.

This vicious cycle generates its own momentum and has lost control. It will never stop until, one day, God steps in to demolish its self-generated power.

Bless you,

[Quix]

THANKS TONS.

Am humbled.

Yes, it sounds like another Cultural Revolution in the making.

Am sending your response and the URL for this thread to a former Red Guard now USA citizen. I'd love to see his response to this thread.

I think most people at least initially enter the Party to get better working conditions, protection, income etc.

But the insidious mentality bubbling up from the evil in the human heart gets pretty relentlessly in control soooooo easily.

Bless you and all close to you,