Off-Duty Bans: Should cops have guns?

National Review ^

[Stew Padasso]

Off-Duty Bans Should cops have guns?

By John R. Lott Jr.

After a city-council member was recently killed at New York City Hall, Mayor Michael Bloomberg questioned why James Davis, the murdered councilman, would want to carry a gun. Davis, a retired police officer, had a permit to carry a gun, but Mayor Bloomberg found it very troubling: "I don't know why people carry guns. Guns kill people…"

Bloomberg's new solution: Ban off-duty and former cops from being able to carry guns in city hall. Davis was blindsided by the attack and was unable to use his gun to protect himself. The attack was stopped by an on-duty police officer. Yet, it is hard to see why it is possible for New Yorkers to trust an on-duty officer but somehow minutes after he goes off-duty to no longer trust him.

It would seem that the ban has only one possible outcome: Criminals have less to worry about. In these "gun-free zones," fewer people can act to defend themselves and others. Nor is there a significant benefit from only having uniformed officers. If these killers want to attack, they need only wait until the uniformed officer leaves the area or otherwise make sure that officer is the first person whom the killers attack.

Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg's reaction is not unusual. Legislation to let off-duty and retired police to carry guns with them when they travel across state lines is being held up in Congress by a threatened Senate Democratic filibuster. Sen. Ted Kennedy, (D., Mass.), who is leading the threatened filibuster, claims that the measure would "do great damage to the effort of state and local governments to protect their citizens from gun violence." He argues the law would also "undermine the safety of law enforcement."

Terrorist threats have greatly increased the demands that states and cities hire more police to help cover all the possible vulnerable targets. Yet police officers can't carry their guns when they travel outside their states. Forty-four states let civilians to varying degrees carry concealed handguns, but somehow we can't trust police to carry a gun when they travel to even these states. Some states don't even let their own officers carry their guns off-duty.

Over 8,000 state and local police departments in the U.S. employed about 450,000 full-time sworn police officers in 2000. Adding retired officers who have served at least five years would add millions more. Many would not only carry their guns for free, but would actually feel more comfortable and safer being able to carry them.

The federal government advises us that we should be observant and report strange events to the police. But there is not always time to call 911 and wait for the cavalry to arrive. This legislation helps provide police who are well trained and who may already be there at the scene.

Take a couple of high-profile examples where off-duty or former police carrying guns have made a critical difference. An off-duty police officer, who was registering his daughter for classes, helped stopped a public-school shooting at Santana High School in Santee, California in 2001. Last year, two law students with law-enforcement backgrounds as deputy sheriffs in another state stopped the shooting at the Appalachian Law School in Virginia. When the attack started the students ran to their cars, got their guns, pointed their guns at the attacker, ordered him to drop his gun, and then tackled him and held him until police were able to arrive.

The public fear of guns is understandable, given the horrific events shown on TV. During 2001, national-news broadcasts on the three main TV networks carried about 187,000 words on gun-crime stories. One story briefly mentioned an off-duty police officer stopping a crime. Not one segment featured a civilian using a gun to stop a crime. Even the most observant are unlikely to realize that guns are used by even civilians to stop crime some two million times a year — over four times more frequently guns are used to commit crime. Newspapers are not much better.

Not surprisingly some people react to crime by wanting to ban all guns, even those held by off-duty police. What is next? Banning guns carried by on-duty officers?

[Psycho_Bunny]

After a city-council member was recently killed at New York City Hall, Mayor Michael Bloomberg questioned why James Davis, the murdered councilman, would want to carry a gun. Davis, a retired police officer, had a permit to carry a gun, but Mayor Bloomberg found it very troubling: "I don't know why people carry guns. Guns kill people…"

I'd make the effort to follow the logic of Bloomberg's conclusion but, I live on the planet Earth.

[harpseal]

bang.

I do not think that former police officers should have any special rights to carry a gun to places an ordinary citizen cannot. That said Bloomberg is an idiot for wishing to bar any legal weapons carrier from city hall.

[evolved_rage]

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun!

[Bobibutu]

An armed society is a polite society ... Robert A. Heinlein

http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/leaflets/armed.html

[CHICAGOFARMER]

I do not think that former police officers should have any special rights to carry a gun to places an ordinary citizen cannot. That said Bloomberg is an idiot for wishing to bar any legal weapons carrier from city hall.

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80 million firearms owners agree with you.

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There are not enough police to protect everyone. Currently, there are about 150,000 police officers on duty at any one time, per U.S Justice Department 1998. 450,000 TOTAL.

This is on-duty police. This included desk clerks, command sergeants, etc. far fewer than 150,000 cops are crusing your neighborhood. With approximately 271,933,702 people living in the U.S resulting in only ONE on-duty cop for every 1,813 citizens.


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HERE IS SOME STUFF FOR THE ANTI GUNNERS TO CHEW ON!!

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Someday someone may kill you with your own gun.

Here is how to apply the story.

They say: Someday someone may kill you with your own gun!!

You say: Yes, But I bet it will be empty and they will have beaten me to death.
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Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun, In less than 1% of the time is the gun ever actually fired. National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000 Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF
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Guns are often used to commit violent crimes. Fact 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. 1998
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Self-Defense is a Basic Human Right
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Myth: Stricter gun control laws could have prevented the Columbine massacre.
Fact. Harris and Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in obtaining weapons. Would 21 laws really have made a difference?
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"There is nothing so powerful as truth." - Daniel Webster
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* Supreme Court admits "the people" in the Second Amendment are the same "people" as in the rest of the Bill of Rights -- In U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez the Court stated that "'the people' seems to have been
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Justice Department study:
* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."
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* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

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* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."30
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Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is almost twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder. During the first ten years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 146 to 88 margin.21

[Hank Kerchief]

# All gun control is wrong. Anyone should able to purchase, own, and carry a gun without getting anyone's permission, approval. or consent.

# As a result of further research, the above is amended as follows:

Most gun control is wrong. Anyone should able to purchase, own, and carry a gun without getting anyone's permission, approval. or consent, except that no member or employee of any government agency should be allowed to own or carry a gun.

# There is nothing to fear from any citizen carrying a gun, unless he is a member of some law enforcement agency.

# Question: If the police are not allowed to carry guns, how will they stop criminals who have guns? Answer: The same way they stop them now. Not at all.

From: The Autonomist's Notebook - Gun Control

Hank

[paul51]

I don't know why people carry guns

Ahhh. Could it be that maybe people would like to be able to defend themselves?

[LandofLincoln]

Here in Illinois, a police officer is considered on duty 24/7. If he is not on duty he is on call, which means that he has to be armed. I can assure you that the gun did not find its way into city hall, and fire itself at the councilman. Some jackass half-human being carried it in there and fired it.

GUNS KILL PEOPLE LIKE A SPOON MADE ROSIE O'DONNELL FAT!

[CHICAGOFARMER]

"YOUR CONCEALED WEAPON IS FOR PROTECTION OF INNOCENT LIFE ONLY."

"KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR WEAPON."

"IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY SAFELY- RUN, RUN RUN!"

"DISPLAY YOUR WEAPON, GO TO JAIL."

"DON'T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU."


My 5 Rules of Conceal and Carry

[CHICAGOFARMER]

TEN RULES OF A GUNFIGHT

Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring friends with guns.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Only hits count.

If your shooting stance is good you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

Keep shooting until the threat no longer exists; then stay sharp until somebody with a badge tells you to freeze.

If you can choose what to bring to a gun fight, bring a shotgun and a friend.

In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.


If you are not shooting you should be reloading or running.

Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

[Henrietta]

"Bloomberg's new solution: Ban off-duty and former cops from being able to carry guns in city hall. Davis was blindsided by the attack and was unable to use his gun to protect himself. The attack was stopped by an on-duty police officer. Yet, it is hard to see why it is possible for New Yorkers to trust an on-duty officer but somehow minutes after he goes off-duty to no longer trust him."

Off duty cops don't need guns. They can apply for a permit if they want to carry.

We ordinary serfs (um, I mean citizens...) are generally not permitted to carry guns unless we go thru a permit process, the "logic" behind this infringement on our rights being that the State needs to ensure we are not a danger to society, and do a background check on us. In many states, serfs are not permitted to carry guns at all. If we ordinary people don't need guns, then off-duty cops don't need them either. After all, they are off-duty, right? They don't have a duty to protect us off-duty, so their only justification for carrying off-duty would be a need to protect themselves, and this just isn't needed, unless you have a permit.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[joesnuffy]

Take a long look at all the quality of life in those societies that have banned their citizens from owning guns for personal and family defense..
Predators only understand one thing...armed prey is to be avoided...unarmed pray is easy...

[Bobibutu]

A Remington 870 pump loaded with "00 will stand off any amature assult.

[PaxMacian]

" I don't know why anyone would want to own a gun. Guns kill people."

One obvious reason is to protect ourselves from powerful yet constitutionally ignorant fascists who possess irrational fears of attacks from inanimate objects.

[PaxMacian]

Predators only understand one thing...armed prey is to be avoided...

You are so right!

Lived in Brooklyn, and NYC for four years, mugged twice in the first few months, began carrying a shoulder bag which my hand could slip easily into, countless potential attackers at all hours in any part of the city turned away, did u-turns, ran, or stepped backward upon the simple action of placing my hand in the bag confidently. No words needed.

[elbucko]

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Oh, so true. This moved Bucko to tears. Thanks.

[jimkress]

Off-Duty Bans: Should cops have guns?

Not if I can't!

[Coleus]

`

[Calpernia]

Ping....a blog in the making!