Terror attack on grid would collapse U.S.

UPI ^ | 9/4/03 | Shaun Waterman

[_Jim]

When the grid goes down, it should collapse to its several local, autonomous community systems.

They refer to his as 'islanding' - when local generation provides for 'load' in that islanded area ... this sort of thing *should* have happened on Aug 14, and, it did, actually, as the entire eastern grid did not go down as the mechanism for the collapse was halted by such system as the Pennsylvania-Jersey-Maryland (PJM) controlled areas ... by shedding adequate smaller 'loads' in an area that has islanded *most* of the local load (and, most importantly, the generators *stay up*) stays powered up.

[MatthewViti]

I prefer to have a "just shut up and do it" attitude. That's the only way things get done. IT's long past time to wake up to this hell we live in.

[null and void]

Specificaly, IIRC, they planned on nuking power plants.

[Poohbah]

True--but that wouldn't have done much more damage to the grid than a counterforce/C3I attack would do. After a while, the destruction curves flatten out.

[null and void]

They planned on sparing cities and manufacturing facilities. And most importantly, the rest of the government - specifically the President!

They felt it was essential that they extract a legal, universaly recognized surender.

Having someone a dozen people down in succession to the office just wasn't good enough...

[Poohbah]

They planned on sparing cities and manufacturing facilities.

Debatable.

And most importantly, the rest of the government - specifically the President!

This is where I part company with Hoeber and Douglass. My reading of Soviet doctrine is that they planned on clobbering the entire damn chain of succession, from the Prez on down, as part of a C3I attack. They most certainly had Washington DC targeted with multiple warheads. Suggested reading: "Can Nuclear War be Controlled?" by Desmond Ball, Adelphi Paper #169, published in 1981 by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.

They felt it was essential that they extract a legal, universaly recognized surender.

They wouldn't have gotten one. Once hit by an attack that followed their doctrine, the US had no particular reason to restrain itself, and may very well NOT have been able to restrain itself, because the communications links from the National Command Authorities to the military commanders would have been a shambles. The guy who could give the shoot/no-shoot order was an Air Force one-star on an EC-135 over Nebraska, and he would have had no contact with Washington after such an attack.

[null and void]

This is where I part company with Hoeber and Douglass. My reading of Soviet doctrine

I'm just reporting what they extracted fron their (former)Soviet contacts, and previously classified Soviet documents.

Doesn't make a pinch of shiite's difference what you or I think - what mattered is what THEY thought.

They wouldn't have gotten one. Once hit by an attack that followed their doctrine, the US had no particular reason to restrain itself,

Clinton (either one) would surrender - to save the children, of course...

[SSN558]

Every special interest in the U.S. has used chicken little tactics in attempt to get a piece of the largest gubmint spending spree of the 21st century. What is next ? Homeland defense generators.

[Poohbah]

I'm just reporting what they extracted fron their (former)Soviet contacts, and previously classified Soviet documents.

I've read those same documents, and , IMNHO, their conclusions were flat-out wrong--methinks the Hoover Institute shaded things somewhat to hype the Red Menace (not that it actually needed any hyping; it's just that it's easier to make folks afraid of Commie troops landing on American shores instead of Commie warheads).

The USSR didn't care about a "legal surrender" by the President, nor did they care about keeping American industrial infrastructure intact. IF America reverted to barbarism and feudal, low-tech societies, then America would pose no threat whatsoever to Soviet postwar recovery and its future imperial ambitions.

Doesn't make a pinch of shiite's difference what you or I think - what mattered is what THEY thought.

And I'm telling what they thought. Had it gone to a nuclear exchange, the USSR would've engaged as many US military and CI targets as possible. Since most of those targets tend to be co-located with urban/industrial targets, even a "limited counterforce" attack would have inflicted enormous damage on US urban areas; a full countervalue attack would have done somewhat more damage, but most of the country wouldn't notice.

Clinton (either one) would surrender - to save the children, of course...

Assuming that (a) they s/he/it was still alive (not a certain bet, because of the profusion of "must hit" C³I targets in the National Capital Region), (b) that the C³I system (which, remember, has been targeted for destruction) could relay the surrender order to subordinate commanders, and (c) that those subordinate commanders, who've just had their families erased from the earth, thirsted for revenge, and would actually give a (bleep) what a draft dodger or his brood sow had just ordered.

[HitmanLV]

I agree that a protracted power loss wouldn't destroy the USA. It would be a rough 1 or 2 days or so, but the USA would not 'collapse' nor would our economy come tumbling down if we were without power for 36 hours.

[Bon mots]

The Sky is Falling!

[M. Thatcher]

Never underestimate the ability of resourceful individuals to make things happen.

THANK YOU. This nitwit scenario implies we'd all sit around and moan. Sheesh. This is America; the ability and will to go into herculean overdrive when necessary is in our DNA. We'd assess, analyze, assign, and solve.

[Poohbah]

It would be a harsh blow; we really do depend on just-in-time inventory management for a large part of our economy's success.

One thing is for sure: if a cyberattack took down the power grid for a couple days, and we found out a nation-state was behind it, we would go nuclear.

Maybe what we ought to do every few years is pick the most annoying country out there and pound the stuffing out of it, just so the rest of the world understands not to mess with Daddy.

[null and void]

Thanks

[hchutch]

The Ledeen Doctrine! :)

[Poohbah]

Credit then, where credit is due!

[Robert_Paulson2]

we need lots of local power stations put online to back up the grid. Not hundreds... thousands of them.

and we need the police to patrol them instead of out trying to nab folks for seatbelt violations or smoking in "non smoking" bars...

infrastructure is everything.
"ballasting" the power supply would make our national power supply like bulkheads on a submarine or warship... if they stay in tact, entire compartments can be flooded without losing the entire ship...

same thing with refineries and ports of entry for resources.
every navigable river, bay and potential port should be used for bringing in fuel, and commodities.. that way if one port is hit, say los angeles, we still have plenty of capacity via san fran, san diego, portland seattle and so on... right now, the distrbution of our raw materials, seems to be TOO focused on the super ports.

rivers and bay channels must be dredged to increase navigibilty... so that we have hundreds of USEFUL ports for fuel, raw materials and resources... REGARDLESS of the target.

We also need to refocus on our RAIL system. It is in shambles, and we are dependent on truckers, truckers and truckers.. in that order.

The more avenues and resource infrastructure paths we have, the more difficult it becomes to bring down the entire structure.

We should also close down our borders to a trickle and get the foreign illegals OUT of here... they are the literal hives of scum an villainy that are the root of our nightmare.

For a nation at supposed war, we got a lot of "citizen surveillance" and not enough, "foreigner expulsion".

[Robert_Paulson2]

pound the stuffing out of it, just so the rest of the world understands not to mess with Daddy.

---

sometimes I really LIKE the way you think... roflmao

[LibKill]

There would be an upside to this if it happened. An awful lot of Americans who have lost interest or never paid attention would be reminded that this war affects them very personally.

It might even strengthen our resolve as a people.

"You don't tug on Superman's cape..."

[LibKill]

Maybe what we ought to do every few years is pick the most annoying country out there and pound the stuffing out of it, just so the rest of the world understands not to mess with Daddy.

I LIKE IT!

Sort of like Rush's foreign policy 'excrement list' but more forceful and memorable.